I disagree there. Once the entire line (between BJ and GZ) is complete, I imagine it will open up all sorts of new markets.

A lot of very solid arguments, but I think that you are really missing the point regarding affordability. While the prices might not be "overpriced" for many of us here, or even the initial target market, both constitute such a small minority of Chinese train travel, that such thinking is unrealistic. While gov't officials and business travellers can and will make use of such a service, the pricing is hardly suitable for ordinary folks in China.

With mean (not median - I suspect this is lower) per capita income of about $3200 (~$270/month) on a nominal (not PPP) basis (hey nothing's perfect), such an expenditure (49 Euros or over $70) for a 1 way ticket on a per person basis is quite an expenditure. Or let's play with some more numbers.

Let's use PPP GDP per capita (once again ignoring median income and using mean rather than median). On a PPP basis GDP per capita in China is about $6100 (~$508/month). The cost of a one way ticket, per person is much more attractive than in the case above, but most certainly not cheap or very attractively priced for someone with an "average" or "middle class" income.

The 56 RMB ticket would be a hard seater (and maybe standing up), and having never done it myself, I am sure it would be like the luggage car (or worse), though I feel this will remain the option of choice for most train travellers in China, given the price and availability. However, for a small premium one could do the hard sleeper (numerous threads on how to try and get them here - which shows it can be quite a challenge), which does the trick.

I am sure tickets for these lines will not be too hard to get initially, since getting soft sleeper (a much cheaper option on slow trains even when they were the only show in town) never seemed difficult at all. I think I just found a reason to go to Guangzhou though...

A number of solid comments in the previous posts above though ^

Impressive to whom?

Youtube is blocked in China, here's a direct link. http://english.cctv.com/video/china/

Definately it will facilitate travel for Guangdong government officials and factory owners to lobby in Bejing. As far as a public works project. I don't
in the near future see many of the 20 million factory workers standing in
line for this train to return home for spring festival.

At least to anyone who has used the current "old style" train stations more than they care to remember...As they are neither classical Chinese in style nor especially functional.

Domestic flying in China is not particularly enjoyable IMHO with the exception of Dragonair routes so a big thumbs up for viable alternatives.

I had recently two flights with Hainan Airlines in economy - on a 2.5 hours domestic evening flight, a dinner comparable with "normal" european big carriers like LH, KLM etc. are offering on long-haul (not the european snack, e.g. a dry sandwich) was served, pretty tasty, even with 2 choices (beef or pork) - that was for only around 60 Euro. Air service on the "better" (read: non lowcost) carriers in China has improved a lot in the last few years. (Hainan Airlines is, for example, an official 4 star rated airline...)

Having more alternatives is always a good idea, and while it's true that at the moment factory workers can't enjoy such luxury rides, that might change in couple years. And I've token lots of inner China "fast" (not high-speed trains) like Shanghai-Nanjing (300km, around 2.5hrs) which are pretty much always full or close to full (Hard and Soft) while there are other alternatives on it too (Buses, slower trains) which are cheaper. (SHA-NKG in Soft on the fast connection is around 120 RMB)

More and more Chinese are willing to pay a premium for a comfortable and quick ride, and more and more can afford this. Certainly not all of them are business travellers. Not even the majority I would say. Leisure travel is expanding QUICK - and I mean quick for Chinese circumstances (Their "slow" is even faster what we here call "quick")

The whole project of "new" high speed train system in China is based in demand, not on prestige or anything else. This is a system which is mandatory for the further development of the PR. And so far, their progress is impressing.

It's not so much the cabin experience as the delays, crowded airports & their poor service offerings and getting to and from there.

Although I have only seen the capital investment and fare numbers (so nothing on maintenance, running costs etc) I suspect you are absolutely right that the line will not make a profit as a stand a lone investment

However, like many countries in the world, the extension of faster, reliable transportation links (and the trains can presumably move volumes of people more easily that air) promotes wider economic development which is difficult to quantify. On top of that, there is also the general economic stimulus generated by the initial capital investment in the project

Having said that, the pricing seems topside - the basic Y class Wuhan-Guangzhou is RMB1030 but significant discounts are often available (for next week there are plenty of tickets at RMB380 all in). So there isn't a meaningful pricing advantage to use the service and it will often be more expensive than flying. Flying is faster but by the time you've messed around getting to/from the airports it is probably quite close so why bother with the train? Sure, I might try it once for the experience but I've been on plenty of Chinese bullet trains (260km/hr?) and I suspect this will not be so different

nickyboy

Eye it on 2015 or so .. if our Legislator pass the proposal for "highest cost per KM" in history build out project

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China_B.../KL10Cb01.html

Actually you may have chance to ride on CRH1 / CRH2 (Shikensen E2), the CRH trainsets ordered for sleeper unit (according to Chinese Wiki http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%92%...%BB%84#CRH2E_2)

It seems they actually put CRH2 (Shikensen E2) on the same line also (at least when I see it in news when they go online)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wuhan%E...-Speed_Railway

While I agree on the Maglev, the Tianjin HSR seems make more sense ....
BTW ... take a look at history of Shikansen, they are not any better if without government bail-out (well sort of .. re-organization in other terms)

the GZ - Wuhan is only part of the bigger plan, which include GZ - HK, Wuhan - BJ and Wuhan - Shanghai

For rail projects its always not the rail itself to easily break-even (forget about profit), but it's enabling country-wide economy development, ease road / air traffic (which makes car travel faster) and the development of the rail itself to push employment etc... economist always complain how traffic jam contribute to lost of efficiency which slows the development of one place.

The next decade of China you will see China having High Speed Railway / Subway opening basically every year to ease the traffic due to economy development

Any idea on how the proposed Shenzhen - Kowloon link would be connected to the airport? Via the Kowloon terminus presumably?

There was a proposal on Hong Kong / ShenZhen Airport link which remains quite where all the attention now goes to the High Speed Rail. I guess you will hear news / noise again in early 2010 plan when the "Hong Kong Aiport 2030" master plan release if we are building 3rd runway or not (basically if 3rd runway the twin airport link is presumably gone)

The Tsuen Mun - Airport Link http://www.hyd.gov.hk/eng/major/road...tmwb/index.htm which enter final design stage, if remember correctly, emphasis on the highway development instead of railway, which for me it translate lower chance of direct train connection

From my own view, Hong Kong better off build the High Speed Rail + 3rd runway instead of High Speed Rail + Twin Airport Link,

With HSR, HKG --> ShenZhen will be 1 hour only by Airport Express + HSR excl wait time (Similar to travel on coach bus ?), and 1.5 hr to Guangzhou

However you will need to enter HK @ HKIA and exit HK @ Kowloon HSR station

Yeah the Tianjin line made sense for the Olympics. When the train is traveling 300+km/hr the people living in shacks along the line become a blur.

Actually the Tianjin - beijing section is part of the Beijing - Shanghai also... if you check those wikis...

For the noise pollution / change of life caused by living near fast train ... China don't really care about it... as you know in theory China is still communist country, we talk about the development on the race and the country and ready to sacrifice oneself for it ... LOL

There are plenty of situations where a train journey may make more sense. For instance, there are times of the year in many parts of China when weather conditions mean that air service is subject to delays and cancellations...and real-time info from the domestic carrier is tough to come by. The trains are more reliable, even the traditional non-bullet services. Another situation: Sometimes one's personal scheduling doesn't allow for the better part of daylight hours wasted in flights + security hassles + getting to/from airports, and an overnight train journey makes more sense and a better value as long as you are not overly tall and can't fit in the sleeper. Another situation: you need to travel with physical "stuff" that exceeds airline carryon allowances but due to amount, nature and/or valuation, you prefer to keep with you and not hand over to airlines' checked baggage. Solution = train. Another situation: you just want more space to spread out and wander when travelling, which is not doable on a flight. Another situation: you're a leisure traveller and want some time to practice your Chinese and trade stories with the locals. (Don't laugh, I know some expats who really benched up their language prowess by buying cheap hard seat and hard sleeper tickets to anywhere; on each successive trip they got more and more fluent. :D)

It's good to have multiple options. As for all the existing and this new bullet train, I believe all these are seats only without sleeper cars, and the designation is "1st Class" or "2nd Class" which is a departure from the traditional Chinese train berth nomenclature. The vast majority of average Chinese will be unable to afford this train in the foreseeable future, but this route/corridor probably does have enough business and upper class leisure travellers to not run empty. In my experience in China, I recall very few times I saw ANY form of transportation running anywhere close to empty. Mostly everything runs fairly full to completely full.

Of course as an economic standalone project, this bullet train doesn't make sense in the short term. Who knows about the long term? Subsidizing for the sake of prestige, follow-on economic benefit, or whatever reason you subscribe to is obviously not a problem for the Chinese government. It certainly makes a lot more sense than the Shanghai Maglev, which was strictly an ego-driven exercise in silliness.

I think the Shanghai Maglev could have been a great welcome greeting for travelers. The ticket price should have been adjusted to a rate that semi fills it up and discounted for travelers with same day boarding pass. The main problem is terminates in no man's land. If it stopped in Pudong near Jin Mao Tower then went on over to People's Square it would have really made sense.
I don't buy the arguement that route would have been impossible.

Whenever I'm in the presence of my MOR contacts and the Maglev topic comes up, they're quick to point out that its primary purpose was to serve as a demonstration of the technology (with the idea that it could be used on useful routes in the future). This is supposedly why it's route is 30 km (as opposed to 25 or 35); that was the amount of track they needed for it to show off its capabilities.

Obviously, the people that worked on the project envisioned that it would evolve into something more useful. The fact that that hasn't panned out (and probably never will) isn't really their fault.

German engineers: To reach maximum velocity and then stop will require a
track length of 30km.

Chinese Governement: OK

German engineers: a 30 km length does not place the terminus in a useful location.

Chinese Government: So what, its cheaper.

Yes. They tried the cheapest way. But it's not so bad now, as they've linked up the station the Maglev ends with the Shanghai subway system (I think it wasn't like this till relatively short time ago?)

If you know the timetable of the Maglev (as frequent traveller into Shanghai) AND have only light luggage with you, it gets you into the city much quicker than by taking Bus #5 or a Taxi.

But the Maglev is advertised very badly. I couldn't believe it when I've been travelling there the first time, but it's an absolutely shame. Even without a real "use", they might have marketed that "special" transport much, much better.

I'd like to check this thread in a few years, once the main connections (BJ-HK) come operational. I guess some posters will have to admit they're wrong by then :D

That connection was in place from day 1.

I think the original purpose of the Maglev line was always to connect Pudong to Honqgiao airports. Officially, local residents protested against alleged health risks regarding this extension, but this being China that could be an excuse for all kinds of background scenarios.

The issue is not the growing middle class and the ability to pay for more comfortable options.

The issue that even though the new CRH runs on separate tracks then the old 10hr one, there is possibility that the Ministry of Railway will eliminate a good number of normal trains on this route. While there is a growing number of wealthier middle-class who can and will take advantage of the CRH, the vast majority of people will or must opt for the cheaper slower train.

The issue is not the growing middle class and the ability to pay for more comfortable options.

The issue that even though the new CRH runs on separate tracks then the old 10hr one, there is possibility that the Ministry of Railway will eliminate a good number of normal trains on this route. While there is a growing number of wealthier middle-class who can and will take advantage of the CRH, the vast majority of people will or must opt for the cheaper slower train.

That is a good argument about what might happen in the Western world once a new connection opens up, but I doubt any connections will be cut in China unless the "old" slow trains are emptying up. After all the Chinese gouvernment is well aware of the need of it's working class to travel cheaply, and won't deny them that option, I'm pretty pretty much sure on that.

The Beijing posse is certainly very aware of the need for stability in China. Actually 2009 was named "the year of the migrant worker" if I remember correctly from the lunar new year festivities...So wouldn't expect the number of cheaper connections to be cut.

Hi...I am planning on taking the overnight "T" sleeper train from Beijing to Shanghai.

If the cost of a deluxe sleeper is RMB 921/person for adults, how much will it be for kids? If it's helpful, I think the price for a 2nd class seat is RMB 327.

Also, the kids are 123-125cm tall, slightly over the 120 cm threshold for a free children's ticket (still not sure that the discount applies to)...will the cabin conductor actually measure them and surcharge us if we buy tickets based on the 120 cm children's pricing and vs the 50% 120-150cm children's rate?

Also, is there free wifi on these trains, and if so, is it any good?

I am not how kids pricing works with deluxe sleepers, but I think your 921 seems about 30 higher than the official fare (not a big deal of course; just sayin' you might not be using the most reliable source).

As for Wifi, the answer is "no". However, 4g works --just-- okay.

Kids discounts for sleepers usually come out at roughly 25%. It's a formula where the seat portion of the fare only is discounted. Check on 12306.cn or as the people at china-diy-travel.com to find out for you.
Doesn't matter their height, the price is the same. The only difference is that below 120cm they can travel for free if they share a bed with a parent.

Upper deluxe is 879.5RMB; lower is 1144RMB. Perhaps the poster is including a 40RMB agency service charge.

They don't carry tape measures on the train. Both in the station where tickets are checked and onboard there are 120/150 cm height lines marked out on walls. No doubt folks sometimes cheat and get away with it, but why?

I have seen those wall marks also in every train. And in any case, as I said, there is no price difference between 120cm and 125cm (other than a free ticket if they share your bed).

Is there any reason NOT to take the 15 hour T train in a Deluxe two person sleeper vs the "faster" 12 hour D train in similar accommodations, aside from the difference in timing? The D trains arrive around 7:30am, which is actually too early for us vs. 10:30am which is preferable.

I presume the cabins are comparable...?

Is there anything "nicer" about the D train itself vs the T train? Amenities, smoother ride, fewer stops, better air conditioning, etc.?

The t trains have passable food because they are permitted to use ovens and woks.

The two person cabin is also quite ok, took it this spring from Beijing to Anhui province.

On the Beijing - Shanghai route, I will, however, always choose the D sleepers.

Cant' be bothered doing the trip daytime (or flying daytime), better used for meetings and social gatherings. Also, no interest to spend the extra three hours on a route with remarkably dull scenery.

Private bathroom/washroom and sitting area seems a significant benefit...times (7:30 pm to 10:30 am) work well for us.

Yeah. Arriving at 730a simply isn't cool, but I shall reiterate that edible food is the main benefit of T v D. It's a shame that the Z trains were phased out; they were just as fast as the current D trains, but were not air tight.

I did a 7:30am arrival once a few years ago and traffic into Shanghai was terrible...barely made 10am meeting after quick hotel check in/shower.

Saves you the cost of a hotel room. That's cool.

Why not use the metro, lines 3 or 4 and then transfer if necessary? I find only lines 1 and 2 unbearable at rush hour.

One word: luggage. Also, we are on a family trip...no real agenda or reason to get into Shanghai in the early morning.

Because the metro is hell at 8a.

Not necessarily if you have a pre-paid ticket and do not have to line up to purchase one.

Line 1 and 2 are the exceptions, wouldn't do those from 7-9 am if they can be avoided.