China Eastern (MU) joining Skyteam
 

don't know whether to be happy or worried about this.

The new boss of MU came from CZ, and MU has a strong feeling against *A because of CA.

One World should do better to get MU on board, but CX has a close link with CA. This probably is the reason why MU didn't go for One World.

With two out of three major airlines in China, Skyteam will dominate the market between China and the rest of world.

Is China Eastern partnered with Delta Air? If yes, then they will also be paired with NW.

Besides the ownership of CX vs. the Mainland China airlines you ignore the fact that FM and CA are *A while CZ and MU will be Skyteam. CX plus KA are One World.

Having said that I don't see how Skyteam could possibly 'dominate' the x-country market to mainland China.

Except for the US-China routes the connections to China are fairly abundant and to me it seems that all three airline alliances are well represented (to a lesser extend the HK-based CX/KA One World party)?

Within APAC KA/CX is clearly the best of the bunch - especially in terms of equipment/service/schedule (but with stop in HK).


Personally - PVG based - I'm most likely to fly CA or (If I cannot avoid it) MU domestically and overseas carriers for x-border flights.

The mainland China airlines are still lagging behind - but esp. CA is catching up thanks to the massive capital infusion some years back (not to speak about the capital injections to all carriers re fuel hedging in recent months).

Just my 2cts on the topic

Ham

(Rumor) - MU to sign agreement to join Skyteam in February.
Came up in my feeds today. Author claims (via reliable source - though not named), that MU will sign agreement to join Skyteam next month.

FM has been bought by MU, it will have to leave *A very soon (12-18 mth). CX/KA do not have significant impact on domestic Chinese traffic.

Personally, after visiting China for 10 years I found go through HKG today is unnecessary and unreasonablely expensive. For any business person to visit mainland China, PEK and PVG are the main hub.

Skyteam now has the best deal in China with both CZ and MU (incl. FM) onboard. Both CZ and MU are building PEK as their second hub, this will be a significant development for *A and Oneworld.

I am afraid Oneworld is going to lose out in Asia Pacific with the JAL crisis and development in mainland China. I believe Oneworld has done a lot in early stage trying to convince MU, but the CX/CA link made all these impossble.

How are they going to arrange the China - Japan/Korea codeshares? ANA is currently in agreement with Shanghai Airlines and Asiana with China Eastern.

CA has a 12% hold on MU and it can oppose or block any deals it does not like, as it did less than two years ago with SQ. CX also has shares in MU and most likely they will not let it go unless they are some concessions to be made (for instance establishing a KA hub in PVG with connections to second tier cities)

if you are fine coping with generally lackluster and indifferent service, unnecessary and unexplained delays (courtesy of your friends at PLAAF especially at PVG),dependence on a visa prior arrival and mediocre city and hinterland connections, good for you. In spite of billions of yuans thrown liberally towards oversized structures representing more the inflated ego of the government than a real improvement in travel conditions, HKG remains the best airport in China by a long way, and its services and connections win hands down against the ones offered by any mainland port, and this has been true since I came first in China 15 years ago.

No question that the HKG is the superior airport with superior service--from a passengers point of view (probably airlines also). However, for some itineraries, transiting through HKG just to experience that particular airport makes no sense. If one is travelling long-haul international from most locations to central or northern mainland China--and has no business scheduled for Hong Kong or southern PRC--than it makes little sense to fly through HKG. Particularly if paying for one's own ticket, as the HKG-mainland flight connections are not cheap. There's a reason most of us in northern China needing to get to HKG on our own dime, fly instead to Shenzhen and cross the border overland.

Not sure why you brought up the visa issue, I can't see any relevance.

As for MU joining Skyteam, well...not sure this is really going to be a Great Leap Forward for most flyers. Unless you've got kaboodles of DL FF miles and need to burn them off to/in Asia, now there's an opportunity besides KL and CZ. :-P I find earning miles on any of the Chinese airlines is relatively useless unless you are flying premium fares. Most other alliance program partners only allow earning on the highest of fares. (F, J, full or nearly full Y) And the Chinese own airline programs aren't worth much. IMO

there is no need to have business there to use HKG as a transit point, and you can afford to get there and have an entry visa should you need to go for an emergency. I found the cost of transit in PVG (no business yet in PEK areas) marginally different from the one in HKG and not enough in my opinion to warrant a switch there, especially considering the caos experienced in all the occasions, from check in to customs and a general indifference in attitude. Many I know have reached the same conclusions.

If Dragonair would ever operate routes out of PVG other than HKG that would be great news. But then Air China should probably be given a majority share in order to please Beijing?

CA at the moment is very much involved the development of China domestic/international market. If I recall correctly its ex-boss is now head of CAAC. That's why I found amusing the speculations about MU or CZ...CAAC will decide for them, not comrade Li or some other pale figure in Guangzhou. I agree with you that CX also depends on CA whims, unless Swire decides to cut the crap and actively pursues a merger with some other Asian/Australian airline

Most of my business is in East China and PEK surrounding area. To me, travelling from London, arriving HKG in late afternoon - have to stay over night because no connection to my destinations. One night hotel would cost me 200 pounds, then the HKG to mianland China part is always very expensive normally 150 pounds. And I lose one day for business as well.

I am amazed how you found the cost of transit in PVG is marginally different from HKG. At least, it won't cost me a day for transit, that worth a lot of money to me.

Back to your early post, yes CAAC is trying to re-organise Chinese airlines, that's why rumars about CA merge with CZ or MU keeping coming out. But don't you see the MU/FM link made it lound and clear to CAAC? I have to say, CAAC is only a government agency, has no power in Chinese politics.

MU did not get investment from SQ, not only because CA holds 12% share. It's the fund managers been promised by CA that CA will make a better offer. Did that actually happen? It's a pure business case, CA/CX will not have much say on MU/FM's development in the future, the fund managers are not trusting CA either.

KA to set a hub in PVG? I guess that's CX's dream. Will Chinese allow to foreigh owned airline (CX) to set a hub there? Go figure that out.

Like Jiejie, I couldn't understand your comments on visa either. We plan our visits at least 2 months in advance (if not any earlier), and we always arrange a Chinese visa in London. We've never done emergency visa, or never need one. If you plan your business carefully, why should you need one?

An airport to me is just an airport, I can't see HKG has any amazing stuff attracts me to use that as a transit hub. Chinese airports have worse lounges, so what?

Congestion problem exists in PVG, same as HKG. I have been sitting in a KA metal for few hours because air traffic control near PEK. If you need to go to mainland China, the delay is part of your journey regardless which route you got in. At least once you arrived in PEK/PVG, you are already in China not like in HKG.

The Chinese government is pumping money to keep Hong Kong running and to show the west. It's just to keep the face really, HKG is not the same 20 years ago.

And I remain convinced, transit through HKG is such a old fashion, and the rip off in Hong Kong is as bad as in mainland. You get fake stuff from Hong Kong, even from branded shops.

As for the theme of this discussion, my preferred Mainland hub is and will remain HKG. Cathay and Dragonair offer flexibility, safety standards and quality in a package that is far ahead of any other airline flying to Mainland destinations from abroad.

Because sometimes people have to serve their customers and clients, who might have emergencies that need sorting out. To take one example, I know someone who needed to get to China from the UK during the Christmas break (which was not a break in China). Try getting the Chinese Visa Processing Centre in London or Manchester to issue an emergency visa in those circumstances. If China wants to know more information about people ahead of time, they should have an online system similar to the US or Australia for short visits, and get the information without having to charge the fees. The blanket visa requirement is holding back tourism and some business visits, costing the Chinese economy substantial amounts of money.

I'm sorry, but in years of travelling between North America and mainland China (central and northern) and sometimes Europe and same, I have NEVER found it cheaper to go through HKG--even transit--to get to my final destination. Never. Not once. And I've checked and compared fares plenty of times. The additional leg between HKG-PVG or HKG-PEK is the deal killer on price--it is SUBSTANTIAL not insignificant difference. And often timing of connections means a pricey overnight stay in HKG, plus additional time wasted (assuming I don't want/need to go to HKG at that particular time). So I don't know where you other travellers are getting all these good deals, or maybe you are fortunate enough to be able to purchase tickets on factors such as airport quality and service. I normally can't afford to make those priorities. Flying from Dallas to Narita to Beijing makes sense. Flying from Dallas to wherever to HKG to Beijing makes no sense, no matter how spiffy Chep Lap Kok is, or how chaotic mainland transport facilities are. I guess I'm well enough used to dealing with the PRC brand of chaos that it becomes a nonfactor also. YMMV

Again, if you plan properly, and build up your visa record with Chinese embassy (same as any immigration system in the world), you can get 1-year or 2-year multiple visa for your satff (I am doing it this month for 10 of my staff), so no need last minute rush at all.

Chinese visa is much easier to get for western citizens, comparing with Chinese trying to get a visa to Europe or US. So we shouldn't complain about their service at all.

Your comments on visa regulation is very unreasonable. Do you know how much US or Australia charging Chinese citizen for a short visa, and how long they need to wait? And how many document they need to prepare? I've got Chinese staff waiting for 2 months for a short US visa, and cost me over 2000 pounds when they failed to deliver it.

The UK visa for Chinese I think is around 60 to 400 pounds, how can you ask Chinese to get you a free visa, when the UK government started first, and now is asking that much money?

Well said, agree totally. The HKG-PVG/-PEK leg costs a fortune, and sometimes delay me for a day/night.

Fortunate enough, in my company all those older guys who normally prefer to use HKG transit to mainland China, are all retired. That's why I said, it represents a old fashion/generation. At the moment, I am using PVG as my main hub (80%) when I sending staff to China, and PEK (20%) as my second choice. The accountants are telling me that my travel budget looks better comparing to old days when many people go through HKG.

ok,i'll bite the bullet. Care to give hard numbers about your travels? carriers, class, fares, times per period (year/half year) etc... so I may make myself an opinion.

No. Not yet. It should have wait for another announcement to started own metal codesharing partnership sometimes in 2011 timelines.

Well as someone based in PVG my wish is this brings some improvement in service.

MU has got to be one of the worst airlines I've flown. Recently though I've seen some improvements -- 2 examples:

1) They actually turn off the fasten seatbelt sign now. Before this would be lit for the entire flight (domestic or international). It's ridiculous when there's turbulence and they flash the sign and make an announcement "please do not use the restrooms before the fasten seatbelt sign is off." THEY'RE NEVER OFF! This is not only stupid but dangerous. Passengers basically judge by themselves when it's safe to get up rather than being prompted by the sign.

2) They've started greeting the elite passengers by name and letting them select their meal (in economy) ahead of time.

There is a partnership between China Eastern and Delta. I can earn Eastern Miles (MU) with the following partner flights:

China Airlines, Taiwan
Cathay Pacific Airlines
Japan Airlines
Delta/Northwest Airlines
Shanghai Airlines

First, I am not here to defend the US (or indeed UK) visa system.

I simply stated that the China visa system can (and in my experience does) damage inward investment into China. Not every visit can be planned, and for some investors (who may never have been to China in person) there is no time to build up a visa history.

The UK visa system exists for a reason. There is a concern that Chinese citizens visiting the UK will stay there to work without valid papers. This is perceived as a problem, because there are not enough jobs in the UK for the people who are already there. The cost is, in part, a way to discourage people from visiting unless they really need to. I am quite sure that, like the Chinese system, that discourages business trips to the UK that could help the UK economy. At this point of time, the UK government seem to have decided that the cost of lost visits and investment is less than the damage that could be caused by visitors to the UK staying too long and working illegally. That may well change in the future of course.

I don't like the delays and am certainly not defending how long the UK takes to issue visas - some of my criticisms apply equally to the UK and US.

But I am not so clear about why the Chinese visa system exists in the way that it does. China is entitled to know who is coming to visit, and to refuse entry to anyone it does not want to enter. The concern cannot be about illegal working (the main UK concern) though, as many of the foreigners I know in China are here on F visas that are supposed to be for short business visits only - as long as taxes are paid by these people, the authorities do not seem to care that they do not have the proper Z visa or residence permit. That leaves 3 reasons I can think of:

1. Profit. The government wants to generate income from visitors directly.
2. Reciprocity. Regardless of cost to the economy, China has decided to treat other countries in the same way its citizens are treated overseas.
3. Security. China needs to know who is entering the country and why.

3 makes perfect sense and is entirely understandable. Both the security point and the profit point can be addressed by having visitors register online before they visit, and if needed pay a fee over the internet. Alternatively, this can be done on arrival (as is already true for Taiwan visitors, for example).

Why, in this age of technology, does China need to see physical passports at an embassy (or, in the case of the UK, processing centre) before arrival? Surely it is cheaper for China to do all this online? Even if the fees stay, removing the delay factor will help a lot.

Blind reciprocity is understandable, but damaging to the economy in the long term.

As I say, China is entitled to have the visa system, as is the UK, US or other countries, in any way it wants. I am just not convinced that the advantages and disadvantages of the current system have been assessed.

Good post House and very difficult to argue with your comments. The only things I would add are that, if you do the maths, the profit motive is probably a relatively minor consideration, more a happy by-product of their system.
My experience is in Manchester, UK. At a guess, there are probably 100-200 applicants per day each paying maybe £50 on average and maybe 200 days per year. This is a revenue of £1-2m with operating costs obviously much less. Nice to have, but probably not the driver
I suspect that the system used (which I agree may put off some from travelling, especially at short notice) is just a reflection of the archaic, unaccountable bureaurocracy. No doubt the system made sense 20 years ago when very few travelled. Now there is a deluge of applicants but there is so little service orientation that the decision makers on visa issuance policy see nothing wrong with the current system. So long as they can track the entry and exit of individuals in China for security purposes they are happy

nickyboy

While this thread has gotten WAY off topic, I'll roll with the tangent.

The consulates' resistance to mail service has always puzzled me. If we were required to present ourselves in person in order to get visas, I would be somewhat more understanding, but it seems that the authorities are hell bent on making "someone" wait in their lines on our behalf --> a nice cottage industry has developed (visa agencies).

They used to accept applications through mail. They stopped after the FLG people started sending them junk, i.e. court orders, death threats, white powder, etc.

It does seem way off the topic, promise this is my last post on this Chinese visa topic.

I don't like to pay the increased fee for Chinese visa, and don't like to send my staff down to London to sort out all visa (although we are not far away from it).

I give you a fourth answer for the Chinese visa requirements: China always ask for equal treatment from Western countries, especially with the current Chinese government. US/UK and all western countries asking Chinese citizen to queue in front of their embassy for days and hours just to submit a visa application, and I guess this is the equal treatment to us, why they want to see our passports beforehand.

To be honest, I quite like the new appointment service in London, much better than the long hour waiting in old days.

Maybe my experience is not normal, but I've entered PVG three times from the US in the last eight months, and on each occasion found the immigration/customs delay some of the shortest I have seen anywhere. No "chaos" at Terminal 2 from what I have seen! On top of that, if PVG is your destination, fares from the US are much cheaper than the longer flight through HGK.

Several new sources report that China Eastern (MU) completed the merger process with Shanghai Airlines (FM) on Monday.

e.g: http://english.people.com.cn/90001/9...0/6891536.html

Nothing concrete in terms of alliance changes, though continue to hear rumors that they will join Skyteam after CNY (doubt it that soon IMO) and that the FM brand will disappear (highly unlikely shortterm).

Ive never had any delays entering into China - so far I have arrived into KMG, CTU, PVG and PEK. CTU and PEK have very smooth transfer procedures. PVG isnt as good for domestic transits as so many flights fly to SHA.

Transit at HKG is excellent, as bags are directed to your final city in China, although the Dragonair transit staff are usually cranky first thing in the morning.

At PEK China Southern and Eastern fly into the older terminal, which is a pleasure to use as it is not busy. The walks at the New terminal at PVG are tremendously long.