Miserable flight with Chinese....
 

I have to say...I am pretty open to other cultures and experiences but my recent experience flying with a cabin full of mostly Chinese was utterly miserable.

They acted like the 9 hours flight was a chicken bus...running around the cabin...screaming from front to back having conversations over the heads of the whole cabin (many of us were trying to sleep)...setting up a card game in the middle seat of which I was on one aisle (then proceeded to try and play over the front of me from my side as well until I put a stop to it)...dropping things on my head and getting into the overhead every 15 minutes...interrupting and slowing the meal and drink service with their movements and inability to choose a dish...constantly irritating the non Chinese passengers with climbing, grabbing and pushing seats. Then when we landed while still moving on the active runway many of them were up getting bags out of the overhead. I thought the Russian FAs were going to have a stroke.

Unbelievable experience and one I will not ever voluntarily repeat...

If you think only the Chinese do this, you need to travel more. :D

I have seen a handful of people do this in other cultures(usually the people that are obviously from a village) but not the mass effort that occurred here.

I have traveled plenty just not in Asia...and I now realize I was better off that way.

Vesicle, I live in China and travel around Asia regularly, and it's really just the Chinese--mainland Chinese, specifically--that act this way on a regular basis. Some of them have never flown before, others have flown very little and not internationally. But that's no excuse for this behavior, as interestingly, on Chinese domestic flights, I rarely see any of the behaviors you described (except for getting up and unloading while the plane is still taxiing). Most of them DO know better. This is going to sound very politically incorrect, but my considerable experience with mainland Chinese is that in public situations, they are extremely selfish and simply do not care about being polite and considerate to others around them. Moreover, they typically respond only to overt directions and/or threats, particularly from "authority figures." The culture has just been programmed that way for so long. On an airline, usually a crew member's threat to have the police waiting for them at the destination will get them to shut up and back in their seats. (even if the threat is an empty one). I suspect that there was at least one big tour group on board your flight, and the FA's should have gone directly to the tour leader (they'd know who from the record/manifest) and demanded their assistance at getting things in hand.

It's too bad the FA's didn't get the situation under control, but I've seen that happen before on international flights to/from China. In practical terms, what this means is that if the FA's or flight crew doesn't do their job, and a polite but firm request from you to crew doesn't produce the desired effect, then you will need to scold, shame, yell, or shove back at the offending passengers directly. In English will be fine, they should get the message even if they do not understand the words.

In this Olympic year, the Chinese are really sensitive to their poor manners--both domestic and international--making them look like fools and bumpkins in the eyes of the world. I invite you, and anybody else with similar tales to tell, of posting in as many relevant online forums as you are willing to, especially if they have at least some Chinese readership.

Well I do have to admit my very short midland China internal flight was 'fairly' normal as you mentioned is your experience with domestic flights.

I also agree with your assessment of daily attitudes as I found Chinese to be extremely rude and selfish in general society and as much as I tried to just accept it as a part of culture it really bugged me to the point that I became aggressive myself just to survive the day and I hate being pushed to that point. I hated walking in public or going into large groups of people.

The bizarre contrast to that was in one on one business and social situations they were generally very quiet and respectful...

I did try screaming at one of the in flight party goers after he dropped food on my head yet again and that was met with a thousand sorries then him going right back to playing cards and eating over my head. I had to resort to a physical shove out of my space before the point sunk in...

Re the cabin crew they were just as frustrated as we were and since none of the party people spoke Russian or English the FAs had a real hard time controlling things...you could see the exasperation on their faces.

Yeah the Chinese can be pretty cutthroat.

Think of the Cultural Revolution 30 some odd years ago and it'll bring things into perspective (although I have my fits of rage at times, this usually helps), if you can't, read "Red China Blues" (it's a quick read). Having lived in Beijing for over a year, I'll tell you I've become much more aggressive (pushing, cutting in line etc) since there's really no way around it if you aren't willing to pay the extra bucks.

When my friends and I have spoken to some of the older generation, they really curse Mao and the Revolution. I've heard "before Mao, we used to line up and be polite" in a rant numerous times.

If you think the Chinese are bad in flight then you have not flown with Indians (I'm of Indian origin myself) and can vouch. Take an intl flight with many of us and you'll hear the annoying flight attendant bell being rung every 30 seconds, and pretty much everything else you described.

I do have to say, the best thing to do is to post your story and pretty much discuss with everyone you know who's of Chinese origin. Shame is a huge deterrent here, more so than anything else.

Although I must say your "China rant" is a short one that seems to be lacking in the anger department ;) and I was hoping for more. Everyone has days in which they rant about China (I know I do). Welcome to the club.

Keep in on 'ranting' - it feels good and is politically correct. But it won't change the behavior described. As China opens up more and becomes richer, there will be more and more people traveling internationally....eventually things will change....IMHO

Haha...honestly I was plenty angry and could have gone on and on complaining but I figured I was going to get blasted for being a racist or centrist.

I am actually shocked to find people agreeing with me...

Makes me feel a bit better as I have wondered at times if I AM a racist after having some pretty negative experiences with certain cultures.

I'll stick with the Finns...calm, quiet and respectful by day...only nuts at night when the booze flows :)

And dtsm I had no intent or allusion of changing anything...was just venting as I truly did not enjoy my experience in China.

Honestly, we all have days like that. Talk to any old China hand (something I most definitely am not). And even they talk about days in which they want to shoot everyone they see...

I was angry last night. Why? Because I wanted to go to Harbin with friends to see the Ice Festival. Being a poor student, I don't really have the funds to fly or take soft sleeper on the train, so I had to go to hard sleeper or soft seat (which many people go for as its a 12 hours ride). Well considering most train tickets can only be purchased four days in advance of departure (and not roundtrip mind you unless you're part of a tour which no one wants to do) at 7pm. This means you have to get to your travel agent at around 5pm and line up. So I did. And I waited. I was 3rd in line.

Well at 7pm we didn't start buying tickets because the agent's computer froze or stalled. I kid you not. They had to reboot and only at around 7:12 did they start selling tickets. The girl in front of me barely got her ticket. Me? Well I needed 3 tickets and only had a chance to get one. Not wanting to go alone, I said forget it (and some other choice words) and walked out.

One also has to remember that when buying such tickets, not only are there 1.6 billion people in China, but there are also touts and travel agents who will buy in bulk in order to fulfill their needs, or just to scalp. In other words, sometimes tickets are sold out in 2 minutes.

Many people I know have success taking slower trains or going to the station a few hours before the train leaves and buying the tickets touts and others have returned. I've never tried that though. Walking around trying to find scalpers also proved fruitless.

Final point, developing country means just that. Red tape, people not being used to flying/other activities that used to be reserved for the wealthy. It'll take some time.

Yep...when I was young and adventurous I liked to experience "living and traveling like a native"...that got old REALLY fast and to this day I do whatever I can within my budget to avoid the 'common peoples' routes" in developing places not because I think I am superior but simply because I cannot deal with that level of headache and frustration...I am too soft I guess.

I hear you about the money thing too...I envy the folks who travel all the time first class/business class and stay in 5 star hotels...I can't imagine having that much money to toss around.

Well the anger was out of my system in a few hours because I had a great dinner (at a dirty unliscenced neighborhood restaurant where I know the owner) with a friend and we ranted it out for 20 some minutes. Travelling like a true local would mean standing or sitting in hard seat ,something I have never done but would be unimaginabely uncomfortable, especially given what I have heard from friends (both Chinese and foreign). Usually those seats are easy enough to come by, especially unreserved standing ones... Busses in China, luxury ones, aren't bad and pretty cheap. As for "five star" hotels one on a decent budget can stay at them depending on the place. While something like the Golden Flower Shangrila in Xi'an isn't a real five star place, that's what it's rated and the service is great. And I have seen deals to stay there for less than 100 USD/night. Still too expensive for me, but far within the reach of many. Ditto for plenty of properties that are "4-5 star" and Chinese owned and/or a little older here in Beijing.

It's amazing how I and many others just shrug our shoulders on a daily basis and say, "That's China"

Fly F Class in a sky suite, greeted at the gate by an airline rep, wisked away in an S Class Mercedes to the Pen, Shangri-la, GH, IC, MO....executive /club floor suite. Best tickets to the opera, 5 star restauarants, guided tours, ...shopping at Prada, LV, Fendi.

I wonder if this is really experiencing China?

Maybe not, but I'd sure give it try,on somebody else's dime.

And I suggested you vent some more - no flame intended :D

After 7 years here, I've found the secret to not letting China and the Chinese drive you insane is to pick your everyday battles wisely, stand up for yourself if you need to, learn whatever "system" applies to common tasks and game it to your advantage if possible, then don't sweat the rest. Regardless, I still have Bad China Days where I go home, slam the door to the world outside, and rant to anyone who will listen. Then get over it and go out the next day to do battle again. It's true that the application of sums of money can buy you the VIP treatment and the use of local intermediaries and service providers that insulate you against much of the everyday frustrations of getting personal tasks accomplished, but this is true in more places than just China.

Sometimes though, it's more satisfying to apply the direct bit*h-slaps yourself. Case in point: in December I was at the flagship Olympic merchandise store in Wangfujing buying souvenir Christmas presents to take back to USA. Was only person waiting at cashier counter while they changed out staff and cash drawer, so I was legitimately next. A Chinese guy tried a flanking maneuver and inserted his hand with cash and price slip, in front of me towards the cashier. I grabbed his hand and cash, and flung them away, giving him a very loud scolding (in Mandarin): "You would act with these bad manners and shame your family and your Motherland?!" I guarantee I was loud and angry enough that the closest 100 people to us all heard and turned withering gazes from me to the perpetrator, who gave an embarassed grin, lowered his ears and tail, and took his place at back of customer line that was now forming behind me. HA! Words cannot express how good that felt! In China, you take your victories where you can.

...and which part of this was different from any other country? That's what I've been doing in the US! :D

A fantastic post. I'm kind of the same way, though I'm still learning... Ripping someone a new one certainly feels good at times. Here's a typical example of negotiation, being hard nosed and chewing someone out. I'll let it be known that this kind of negotiation pretty much happens on a daily basis.

We had exams today, and in addition to telling off my teacher (who's no more than 25) for giving us a very late notification regarding the exam, I let them have it when she and the other proctor when refused our class's request for them to notify us how much time we would have left in the exam at certain intervals.

There was no clock on the wall and we made note of this; my teacher and the other proctor decided it would be a brilliant idea to tell everyone to turn off their phones. That's fine and good, since phones can ring and people can use them to cheat. However, this also meant that people wouldn't be able to keep track of time. I mentioned this point to which I was given a response.

"We don't want to distract you by telling you how much time you have left."

My response, "Ok, Then you'll write it on the board."

"Ok, we'll tell you when you have 10 minutes left."

"No you'll write more than that"

"Ok when there are 20 minutes left and then when there are 10 minutes left."

"No you will do it when there are 50 mins left, 40, 30, 20, and 10. And no I am not turning off my phone, I will put it on silent."

They wrote it in 10 minute intervals, starting at 50.

Don't think I did great on the exam though...

With regards to the queueing thing, I find it quite embarrassing when some dude (I'm still a dude myself) tries to push past everyone to board the bus (including older people who have difficulty walking/canes). I usually just body them out or elbow them pretty hard and let the seniors on their way. Shameful considering that tradition Chinese culture is all about respecting elders. While I have gotten into the butting in line habit as well as others (really no choice), you've got to give older people some room and then let the melee begin...

There is nothing in the USA that is as frustrating trying to do as it is in the Third World....the mean DMV ladies have nothing on China. Even the horrible computer phone support is in India so you could again blame a different culture.

You brought up a good point about the elderly...I have no problem shoving a young, able bodied person out of my way if they try that nonsense on me but to see them do it to an old person is sick and again shows an innate lack of respect.

I live in Central Europe and as rude as many people can be in public one thing that I never fail to see is people getting up so old people can sit on buses etc...even the most chav looking idiots will move for grandma....strange conficts of action.

This is my quote and I stand by it.

"China is like the DMV... on crack" It's how it is on a daily basis. You've just got to get used to it, take your lickings, get up and go at it again. I've learned a ton about myself and about other things here though...

You are a better man/woman than me...I had enough after a couple months and hope to never go back.

I see no need to subject myself to the daily struggle if I don't have to.

Good luck!

Funny since I'm actually leaving Beijing in a matter of weeks to move to HK. Thanks though. Anyone else with China rants, feel free to post them here.

Hehe...lucky you getting out of there.

I would not go back there even if someone paid for first class tickets.

Having money in China is a great thing, believe me, much more so than in the west... I'd be back here in a flash if I was on an expat package... Numerous expats and I'll quote them have said this, "It's very easy to get comfortable here."

Maybe in regard to a nice flat etc but no amount of money buys clean air or the ability to change the public's rude behaviors.

I know some people like it there but for me it was the worst place I have been...

You haven't been to too many bad places, I take it.

Money buys you the ability to avoid dirty air a lot. It also avoids you to having to face much of the public, which means you get things done faster and don't have to encounter such behavior.

I have been to plenty...what I meant was while you can insulate yourself from some annoyances by having a nice flat, taking a car, eating at 5 stars restaurants etc...you are not able to go outside and do normal things without subjecting yourself to the bothers...money doesn;t change that. So if you are content living in a cocoon on another planet then yeah I agree you might have a high QOL relative to salary.

I have known a few expats who have dealt with the conditions you describe by pretty much being intoxicated the whole time. Downside is they eventually required a liver transplant - upside they are in the right country to get that done.

Haha...yeah I have known plenty of those types. I have to say I generally avoid other expats when living abroad as they are some weird cats often. I also seem to always meet the expats that have a "great business idea" they want to involve me in...no thanks!

Drinking always helps. Though I think in China, they'll probably take away you're liver and ship it to Guangdong long before they'll give you one ;)

Exapts aren't always nutty, it's only in countries like China. Expats not on expat packages here, or those who have been here a long time are kind of nutty (I'm getting to that point), but you've got to be in order to survive. Vesicle, In my 16 months here, China has eaten up and spit out so many people I know that I've simply stopped keeping count.

BTW, my nice flat is pretty cheap. And I eat at unlicensed restaurants (many of which are better than overpriced overhyped 5 star ones). Though sanitation... Well I'm still alive.

Regarding clean air, we can't forget how LA and Pittsburgh were in the past. And while it's disgusting here, the air at least, it'll pass (hopefully). Growing pains. Growing pains. Not to mention that per capita, the US wastes oodles more than China or other developing nations...

Random thoughts on the last several posts:

--There are indeed NO parallels in the USA, to the way you have to get things done in China. Part of it is sheer numbers of people that are also trying to scrabble to get things accomplished, part of it is language barrier (if you don't speak at least intermediate Mandarin, it's hard to figure out exactly what is going on), and part of it is just that inscrutable Chinese logic as to why some idiotic regulation or procedure exists.

--You spend a lot more time on the "infrastructure" tasks of life in China, especially if you are on your own (student, freelancer, locally hired). A list of mundane personal tasks--banking, grocery shopping, dry cleaners, ticket pickup, etc--that might take 1-2 hours in the USA may take 1 or more days in China. To free up time, expats with even part-time ayis (maids) send them out to do as much of this as possible, as a 3-morning-a-week cleaning lady only costs about $20/week (big city price). Just cleaning your apartment takes more effort, as the dust and pollution in most Chinese locations means no surface can go more than 2 days without requiring thorough cleaning. I've yet to see anyplace in the USA where you can't get by with once a week (or even longer--OK I confess I'm not the Martha Stewart of housekeeping on any continent!)

--I know plenty of students, English teachers, and others NOT on cushy expat packages who lead very fulfilling and happy lives in China, despite the daily frustrations and occasional China Rants. So having money to burn isn't the critical factor. It's not necessarily even based on one's prior Third World travels, as I know well-travelled people who've enjoyed places widely regarded as reasonable toughies like India or Egypt, but who despise China (and vice versa). The differential seems to come down to one's innate personality, adaptability, and expectations. And whether the culture just strikes the wrong "tone" with one. Vesicle obviously just can't get in tune with China, and that's OK. Best thing to do in this situation is move on to something that works for you--life's too short to stay in an uncomfortable situation and there are plenty of interesting options out there in the world.

--Even with my episodic Bad China Days, I actually like it here. China grows on one...like a fungus! And if you are here to work, and have the right skill set, you can make and save gaboodles of money, which is one justification for putting up with a lot of aggravation. However, due to the serious quality of life issues such as pollution, most expats who have open-ended stays (not finite corporate or diplomatic postings) eventually decide to move out of China, or to a relative "clean" location in China. I'll have to re-evaluate this myself in a couple more years.

--Most long-term expats, of which I'll include myself, find they must leave China at intervals of no more than every 4-5 months to "recharge", not to mention change the air in their lungs. This is called a Sanity Break, and one good thing about living in China is that in only several hours, you can be on a nice beach with a tall cold one in hand, in a carefree environment in SE Asia.

Additional thoughts on "nutty" expats:

I actually meet very few nutty types here in China, especially not long-termers. Most of the true nut cases--or those who arrived normal but were turned into nut cases by the Chinese--will be out of this place inside of 3 years, often much less. The long-termers generally have opened businesses, have families and/or friends, are integrated in both expat and general life here, and are achievers and non-slackers. By no means are all of them corporate types or requiring luxury support services. I have met some of the most absolutely fascinating and thoroughly grounded expats in China, compared to anyplace on earth. And most of them have a mixture of love for China and the Chinese in general, but also problems and criticisms (and rants) about other aspects of this country and society.

Contrast that to parts of SE Asia (Thailand, Cambodia come to mind) where the living is cheaper and easier than China. These places have a very large collection of foreign slackers and truly Lost Souls wandering around. Lots of certified nut cases and parasite-types there, but most of them arrived in SE Asia already that way.

Agree with almost everything said here. Despite the occassional rant, I've had a fantastic time here, and know other expats who are not on packages who think likewise.

Though my "recharge" trip is about once a year.

How good is your ayi? I think mine comes twice a week for 2 hours each time (doesn't do the best job but she dusts and mops) for 4 USD a session. We had to teach her to wash dishes with soap though.

I will end this post by stating that as much as I like China, I couldn't see myself living here on a long term basis (raising family etc) unless I was on some kind of big expat package. I could pull it off for some time as a bachelor or something but..I'll also say that money can be critical since it allows lots of people who otherwise would get spit out by China, to stay here and enjoy life, cocoon living or not.

So let me ask you this...though many issues are matters of preference...the air is not. Breathing the heavy amounts of pollution is not healthy and you cannot change it. The damage occurring to your lungs are worth it to you to live there?

I mean if you lived in an Indian village with infected water and no bottle or purifying source would you stay?

Whether you can stand the taste or smell is one thing...but the damage is happening no matter your 'mood'.

related...doesn't matter to me what any other city was like years ago as I don't have to breathe that air.

1. Yup, it's worth it. Life is short and living here is like being in some big movie since changes are afoot so fast. On terrible pollution days, you stay inside with the air filter on full blast.

2. I'm not in an Indian village (though I have to say even Indian villages now have bottled water/soda for sale, so I'd be ok.) I'm sure I eat contaminated food on a daily basis, whether its here or in India. I'm still alive and kicking. This question, unfortunately, only affects the extremely impoverished, regardless of nation, which is sad on it's own since they can't control it. I'm in a major metropolis where I can get clean water and there are tons of international facilities...

3. We probably destroy our bodies on a daily basis given the junk we eat in America. Look at cancer rates in the US, why are they so high? I'm no doctor or scientist, but I am sure this has something to do with it. Look at the ingredients list of things you eat in the US. It's scary. Food I eat in Beijing, surprisingly is probably much fresher (i eat much healthier here for some reason and have lost lots of weight and not through dieting, that's for sure). MSG is widely used in the US too, or alternatives, we just don't know about it.

4. Fair enough. Was just making a point that Beijing and other Chinese cities are only really developing now and will of course suffer from growing pains, pollution being one of them..

Vesicle, not sure if you're speaking to me, but yes, it is currently worth it to me to live in China (Beijing). There are not many other places in the world right now where I can make as much money doing what I like to do, and have new opportunities pop up almost weekly. Definitely not doable in home country the USA. And it's an interesting place to be, with something new (not necessarily pleasant, but new) everyday. Boredom is my enemy. In Beijing and despite the bad press, we actually have quite a few annual clear days, esp. from Sept-April, and on the worst pollution days, I limit outside exposure and stay indoors. I have air cleaners at home and office. I get my lungs checked every year to the extent possible (this is partly to check for TB exposure also). And I'm fortunate to have the flexibility and can afford to leave China for extended holidays, several times a year. More unfortunately, I have unrelated medical issues that will certainly kill me before the long term exposure to pollution does. And I have no dependents who rely on my continued good health for their survival, or whom I need to consider in my decision-making process.

I do not eat the things WHEN I am in the USA you that you mentioned...nor do I eat MSG knowingly.
Even on 'good' pollution days it is still far below a healthy level in Most Chinese cities.
Expats live there primarily for the money as you admitted...not many would do it for chump change as they would and do in nice places

People can justify whatever they wish...like a smoker saying they feel fine so the cigs aren't as bad as people say.

Vesicle, I'm no longer sure what your point is on this thread. You went from bashing the Chinese to seemingly chastising some of us for staying in China. We're all adults here and have the right to make our own decisions on the tradeoffs we face in our respective situations. I'm not feeling the need to "justify" anything to you or anybody else, and if you're trying to lay a guilt trip or something on those of us who have different opinions, different motivations, or make different choices than you, well...it isn't working.

I was wondering about this myself.

My first visit to China was over 13 years ago -- I was there on business. Of the staff and colleagues who went with me, some loved it and some hated it. I was one who loved it and I've been back many times since and, if I can ever learn the language, and we can afford it by then, Mrs. PTravel and I are considering retiring there. Indeed, if there was any demand for an American litigator who doesn't speak Mandarin, I'd move there now in a heartbeat. I can understand some people not loving China -- so much of Chinese culture is different from the West or heavily-western-influenced cultures. I don't understand the need to simply different dismiss a country that holds 1/3 of the world's population, has a 4000+ year old continuous culture and history, as well as the non-Chinese who find it a fascinating, fun, appealing place to live and visit.

Incidentally, with respect to the original topic of this thread, I've flown many times in China and on many airlines, both Chinese and western. I've certainly never suffered the hell described by the OP. China has the Chinese equivalents of the Gomers and Kettles, rude businessmen, and other unpleasant flying types that we encounter in the U.S. Service on domestic Chinese airlines is dramatically, radically better than service on domestic airlines. I'm not denying his experience. I just wonder how much of it is attributable to pre-disposition and perception.

[QUOTE=vesicle;9059540]Haha
Makes me feel a bit better as I have wondered at times if I AM a racist after having some pretty negative experiences with certain cultures.

QUOTE]


you are not a racist. you most likely had a restricted background and very closed up and insular upbringing ......and who really hasnt experienced much despite having said you have been to "many" places but not asia.....but you certainly give proof that this world has many different people and cultures and behaviour
and the plurality of it is so ......for me at least interesting and fascinating

your comments are useful in that ........well.......it speaks for itself.how useful it is .:D

You are very wrong about my background and upbringing. Believe whatever you like however as I know the truth can't be allowed to get in the way of reality...especially online.

I HAVE...been all over the world and lived and worked with many cultures...the ONLY place I did not enjoy to SOME degree (all have some problems as I indicated before) was China. Being poor or inexperienced is no excuse for being a savage..I have known loads of very poor people who were extremely respectful.

People on this site like to make suppositions about a poster's background to fit into their explanations...and they are normally wrong. If they disagree with what one has to say they dismiss it as inexperience or plain wrong. Perhaps you are the one who is wrong? gasp! It couldn't be!

My point is this...China sucked....and people who make excuses for pathetic social behaviors that exists in many places suck. Clear enough?

.you are too funny

did you say Savage ??.....from which refined world do you crawl from sir ? .......

tsk tsk ......some upbringing you have...tsk tsk.

this is not a forum to share such blinkered opinions esp ones bordering on extreme small mindedness...........

this is a great forum for people who has travelled the world near and far and who has useful and helpful and sensible comments - your comments went from an observation to one of petty and unworldly expressions.