Safety in China
 

I am checking out a 23-year-old-female student to be a guide for my 12-year-old son in Wuhan for the next 6 weeks that he is in Wuhan. She seems very bright and creative, coming up with several really good ideas, and I expect that in checking her out everything will turn out OK.

However, my son's (old school) aunt and uncle, who are taking care of him, are reluctant to let my son go exploring in Wuhan, under virtually any circumstances because of safety concerns. My son is pretty bright and can take care of himself in a good number of situations. I am wondering whether there are significant safety concerns for a 12-year-old to go exploring Wuhan if his guide is trustworthy. (Should mention that my son is staying in Wuchang, so most of his exploring with the guide would be in that part of Wuhan.)

DB

I think if this is safe or not mostly depends on the guide.

What do the local 12 year old schoolchildren do? E. g. are they transported home on schoolbuses, or released to go home by themselves on foot, public transport and bicycles? When both parents work during day, do schoolchildren normally leave school before parents finish work and go to empty homes?

Is he an obvious foreigner? You mentioned that his mother is of Chinese descent, does he look really "white"?

If you can't speak the language and you are an obvious foreign looking kid, you will be susceptible to the usual scams and ripoffs.

I wouldn't want my kid to jump in a taxi or be out too late after dark - you just can't be sure. However if you are worried about physical violence or kidnapping, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. China is pretty safe in this regard.

Just use common sense.

IMO the risks in Wuhan are likely to be injury due to stepping in the holes in the sidewalk pavement, being hit by a motor vehicle, or illness from eating in the hole in the wall restaurants without running water to wash dishes.

Taiwaned,

My son looks half-Asian. The Chinese immediately see that he is not native Chinese although Americans definitely immediately see the Chinese. I don't want him out after dark. So, if the only issue is scamming (pretty unlikely with guide present) and not physical violence, then I want him to get out.

He has an ipod. I am assuming that he needs to extra careful that someone doesn't try to grab it. Thanks to everyone for their input.

DB

There's very little risk of your son being a victim of violent crime, if that's what you're concerned about. Scammers are unlikely to target an obvious child, foreign or not, as most are generally smart enough to realise that he/she probably isn't carrying much money. As for being paranoid about carrying around an smartphone/iPod, spending ten minutes in any Chinese city would make clear to you that nearly everyone is openly walking around with one of these things and yet somehow not having them constantly plucked out of their hands.

As others have said, the biggest risk is in being run over by a lorry or picking up some stomach bug from street food. Assuming you trust the guide, I see nothing to be concerned about.

True. I'm old school as well, and certainly would not let my 12-year old run around Beijing, Wuhan, or any other Chinese city without a 100% trusted "guardian." And I would find it difficult to put 100% of my trust in anybody that didn't come on personal recommendation from friend or relative. I'm on the fence as to whether the 23-years old and the young woman-ness factors are a plus or a minus. If you go forward with this, you'll have to put a lot of faith in this person.

I can see the aunt/uncle's point-of-view, as this is completely out of the norm for a 12-year old Chinese child, regardless of apparent maturity level. How can you be sure that they won't nix the arrangement entirely, since they have temporary physical custody?

What is the bigger fear? The 23 year old being negligent and letting the boy come to harm through inattention, or the 23 year old herself endangering the boy somehow?

Also, a 23 year old woman might herself be in a bigger danger... being an attractive prey for sexual harassment/rape in a way that a 12 year old boy is not.

The reality is that you are putting your son in the hands of a woman who you have never met I assume. My wife is strictly in the camp of old school and wouldn't let anyone watch our son unless they are friends or recommended by close friends in China.

I don't think physical harm is a worry in Wuhan but I do feel for his uncle and aunt who has responsibility for him and will worry about him nonetheless.

I would like to give some context to the situation. My son is scheduled to be in Wuhan until July 14th. Currently, he is attending an international school to learn Chinese in the morning. The rest of the day is spent mainly in a room in his uncle's house playing games. There is no one in my family who speaks good English.

The guide speaks very good English and has provided her identity cards. She has already met with the family, and offered to teach Mark in the family's home so that the family would be familiar with her character and background. She has come up with amazingly good ideas for Mark to explore Wuhan, such as a rock climbing, paintball, and exploring the European section with a Nikon camera. Thanks to the comments on this forum as well as the families concerns, I will be checking into a background more thoroughly. There is a very good chance that her background will be very good. (Would add that she is a college student on hiatus for the summer.)

If her background is very good, I have to balance the incredible experiences that Mark may get from excursions with the guide against the relatively small chance that something very bad for him will occur. Mark is very mature and clever for is age. An example of that is shown by a discussion that occurred when he was eight or nine. I was trying to get him to exercise more instead of playing games. I suggested to him that he might be the victim of a bully, if he didn't exercise more. He told me that if someone attempted to attack him that he (Mark) would grab a pencil and poke the aggressor in the eye.

Of course, the family can make whatever decisions they wish because I am not in Wuhan. However, I want to know whether I should strongly attempt to persuade them to permit Mark to explore Wuhan with a guide. I should add that Mark has expressed a fear of getting bored many times, and I told him that if he really gets bored I will bring him back to the United States. Right now a once in a lifetime opportunity to explore China has been wasted. I want to remedy that situation if I can.

I understand the conflicting situation you are in. And it may be appropriate to ask on an IBB whether Wuhan, in general, is a safe city or not. I've not been, but I believe it is safe from accounts of my students etc. from there.

But really, asking sanction from a bunch of internet strangers about to whom to entrust your child? And your anecdote might say your son is clever and resourceful, or just has a nasty streak -- not meaning to judge -- but it's impossible to say from your related anecdote, and since I will likely never meet him, that will always be the case.

It's ultimately your call. But I would say this: you have chosen to leave your son with his Chinese relatives, but repeatedly, you come on here complaining about them. This tells me some deep underlying issues that you have, which we can't solve. Legally speaking (I think, I'm no lawyer), when someone is in loco parentis, as your son's guardians are, their sayso should trump everything shouldn't it? They are ultimately responsible for your son whilst you are the absentee parent. If they don't feel comfortable, is it really ethical, just and fair to tell them to 'shove it' and entrust your son (and their beloved nephew) to what to them (justified or not) is a stranger??

By the way, the 'amazing China experience' you want your son to have is probably to learn about real Chinese culture -- and that will come far more by living with real Chinese people, not rock climbing or taking photos with a Nikon or some other branded digital camera. And since the guide will speak English, how will it improve your son's Chinese language skills?

I don't mean to have a go, but I really don't understand what you are trying to achieve by asking us, complete strangers, with regards to your son's safety.

tb

Does seem odd for a travel forum. Maybe better suited for a parenting forum.

I agree with Trueblu.

You should value the opinion of those who are taking care of your son. If you are interested in exposing him to "Chinese" culture, instead of rock-climbing or taking pictures of the "European" section, why don't you start by asking his aunt and uncle what activities kids of his age do?

Instead of paying an adult guide to speak English to him, why not just have him play with neighbors's kids of his age (even if it starts with just video games)?

Dailey, I have to say that I agree with everything trueblu is very eloquently saying here.

Additional context provided notwithstanding, there is definitely something incongruent by putting your son's relatives in charge of his welfare while you're on the other side of the planet, yet then proposing something that they can't buy into but leaves them on the ultimate hook for responsibility in the (unlikely) event something happens to him. I suppose if this prospective guide can gain their confidence and trust in baby steps, then you and relatives will end on the same page and your son will end up not bored. Although frankly, his potential boredom doesn't seem that it should be the main driver of the resolution, if any.

While I'm reasonably comfortable in saying that Wuhan isn't any more or less dangerous than most other large cities (and in fact, I find Wuhan natives wherever I meet them in China to be some of the nicest and most helpful around), I'm uncomfortable in making any judgment on what you should do on this.

Obviously the OP is trying to make the best decision based on the info he HAS. Of course he'd like to know the host better but that's not an option.

I spent quite a few years of my childhood in Wuhan, and I agree with previous comments the intentional harms are unlikely. Especially in populous areas like Wuchang. A foreigner is LESS likely to be kidnapped for obvious reasons.

Do check out the female host carefully. If she's a college student, then go for it. If she's a street merchant, avoid. Understand what her motivation is to be your son's guide! What would she get in return? IF that's not clear to you, pay extra attention. Practicing English isn't a bad reason, especially if she's a student.

Have a contact with a Chinese phone access who your son can call then you should be golden.

I can see how some of you may have been misled by my language. Was simply trying to explain that there were very good reasons to have Mark explore Wuhan. I wasn't seeking your opinions about what to do in particular but rather was asking about Wuhan. It appears that there are not portions of Wuhan that are extremely dangerous such as different parts of Los Angeles, Chicago or Cincinnati. Having been informed of that, it is my responsibility to make the best decision for Mark, how to investigate the student and how to deal with his relatives. I still haven't made my decision.

I was merely trying to be polite to people who spent their time answering my questions by giving the background. Obviously, I made a mistake by giving the context in the manner that I did.

How did you come to know the potential 23-year-old English speaking guide? Did you advertise? Did she advertise? Is she somehow connected to your son's school in Wuhan?

I've been here for almost 20 years, and the only bad thing that happened to me was a broken foot while I was sleep walking in my Nanning hotel room.

In answer to several people who have questions about me questioning the relatives. An underlying dynamic here that I didn't mention in the interest of keeping my original post reasonably short (in addition to the safety issue) is that the relatives are very frugal and think that I am wasting my money by spending it for a guide. They are sometimes over protective of me, and this is part of the issue. Additionally, when they do take Mark out, they feel obligated to give him gifts. Several days ago he was taken shopping and not understanding the economics of the situation, he asked for and received an expensive shirt. (Gifts to children are the one area where the family is not always frugal.) I want to avoid that situation, and would like him to go shopping with the guide and be spending my money.

To Msp & UA: I found the guide on a Wuhan expatriate site where I placed an ad. She is a college student, who has been very forthright and generous so far. She even offered to leave her Ipad with Mark for the duration of his visit.

To JimA: The relatives live in towers with basically no children Mark's age. Before we visited I was hoping that he would be able to meet neighborhood children. So far, he has not met, and I did not see one boy his age. One advantage of the guide is that she has 2 nephews Mark's age and would introduce Mark to the nephews.

To make clear to all again. I have merely sought insights about China and Wuhan. I have to do what is best for Mark by evaluating the information that I have.

As an ethnic Chinese educated and worked/business overseas I can understand your position better than other posters. This is just major cultural clash with family who has never left China and the different valuation everyone exhibits over goods and services.

• Some will not pay and extra Yuan or walk an extra mile for a better bowl of noodles.
• There is an unwritten Confucian tradition of taking care of younger relatives in your care and make sure no harm comes their way.
• Chinese (most Asians) are very protective of the children; they hover around so much that the term "Helicopter Parenting" was coined. A story of a parents accompanying their university age offspring to China for a summer internship made front page in HK.

If you feel comfortable with the student then I would definitely get Mark out to immerse in the real China. The phone idea is great and there are other methods to keep in touch with him. Seems like he knows what to do when he encounters difficulties.

I have a similar situation: I am dishonouring the family if I don't stay at the "homestead" when I am in HK for business or pleasure.
I am 55+ and my aunt has always been protective of the extended family. When I head out to social/business dinner or evening out she would always: "don't stay out too late, we will worry about you, so don't keep us up all night!" :rolleyes: I now stay with close friends for a few days before doing the family visit when I am in HK.
We had to make up an extended family trip to Macau excuse to basically stayed at Hotel on Kowloon side for a few days to give my son and daughter a experience of real night life in HK before LKF.

I know this is NOT what you are asking, but...
 

+1

(underline mine)

These arrangements sound like a summer camp/excursion in a city, with an English-speaking (local) babysitter. That can take place in any part of the world. It doesn't have to be in Wuhan. And from reading your threads about this summer trip for your son, I am certain he doesn't need to polish his English.

I think by the end of the day, what you need to ask yourself is what you REALLY want to accomplish by sending Mark to Wuhan this summer? And how to best reach those goals? I thought it was spending time with his (Chinese) families, studying the language (Mandarin), and immersed in the local culture. IMHO, that's not bundled with spending time with a 23-year-old college girl speaking English, no matter how good, generous and willing she is.

Before sending Mark to Wuhan, you've already known the language barrier between him and his Chinese relatives. I doubt you'll see any significant improvement in English from your Chinese relatives for the years to come. But they will always be Mark's extended family, if you want Mark to stay connected with families from his mother's side. I say learning how to successfully communicate with relatives that can't do English shall be a good part of Mark's "enrichment curricula" while in China. There's a much better chance for Mark to speak good Mandarin to the relatives in the future. ;)

Anyone can, and will get bored when surrounded by people who don't speak a common language. You know your son well and how he can handle himself. That's a big plus for both of you. If I were you, I would think of some ways for my kid to overcome those cultural and language obstacles and really take advantage of those 5 weeks to experience China. Kids pick up languages much faster and easier than adults. When they know they need to speak the local language in order to survive and/or not get bored, they will learn the language in a heartbeat.

Spending more than a decade of my adulthood living in the States, I don't learn about American culture by speaking Chinese to my fellow Taiwanese. I tried my best to watch local TV/news programs, read books/magazines/newspapers, and speak English as much as I possibly could. I have American friends that showed me their local cultures. Some eventually become my best friends. I am not saying your son will be able to make a BFF from China in 5 weeks. However, to spend every possible moment in Chinese with Chinese people/relatives will definitely help him "see" China. That's probably one of the best ways to experience cultural shocks. :D

Isn't that also a teachable moment for you to your son? ;)

Tentseller really nailed it. The aunt and uncle have never been out of China and are very frugal and protective.

To Lin821: You make a number of good points. However, my deal with my son was that he was supposed to have fun in China his way and that if he got bored I would bring him back early. I will keep the deal. Right now he goes to an International School in the morning, and on nearly all afternoons there is nothing for him to do. I feel it is a real shame that his afternoons are all being wasted. His aunt and uncle are in their 60s, don't speak English and are not real good at entertaining children. Also, as I said before, there are virtually no children in the complex where my son is staying. If you have any particular ideas as to how to find more activities for my son, I am happy to listen

What's so terrible about being bored for a few afternoons? Can't he read a book?

I only wish the ramifications of these points (my bolding) had been fully understood by you and son before the commitment for such a long visit was made, so that suitable advance scouting of opportunities and arrangements could be made to fill the time. Keeping a bright 12 year old boy gainfully occupied is much more difficult than when he was a littler guy, and perhaps the aunt/uncle are also now realizing this. I presume you have already scoured the small universe of Wuhan expat sites. It's unfortunate that he isn't in a place like Beijing or Shanghai where there is a big enough critical mass of foreigners and foreign/Chinese children to have lots of summer organized activities. I wish you could find some sort of supervised volunteer set-up that has adults and kids working on a project, on some topic he might be interested in (planting trees, tutoring/playing games at local orphanages, teaching simple music or sports, etc.). I wish I had specifics for you but unfortunately I'm just blank on Wuhan possibilities.

Then perhaps the OP is right in that his plan is the best of bad options? (the worse options being, to break the promise to son and let him be bored, or to take him back early, etc.)

Plan A had been to find same age neighbours. OP is now at Plan B...

One obvious thing to check: the boy is at an international school in the morning. Has he found any friends at the said international school, who could hang out with him after school?

In any case, hiring the 23 year old girl with nephews included sounds even better than plan A. Whether hanging out with same age neighbours from the house or same age international school friends, this would have meant foreign child/ren without any adult guide/chaperone responsible to care for them. So getting him into a family with a young aunt hired to help/huide the bunch would seem safer.

I don't want to plough in again, since as I said, it's not my call. However, all I can say is if my nieces or nephew was entrusted to my care for the summer, if then, I get 'remote instructions' that override my sense of responsibility to the child (not talking about right or wrong here -- we all have certain pre-judgements/ values, and that's what makes cultural exchange both interesting and frustrating at times) -- it would really, really upset me.

And more importantly, likely jeopardise future such trips. OP needs to be clear what the purpose of this trip was, and what his relationship with his in-laws is likely to be going forward.

Living with one's extended family can be frustrating, boring, argument filled etc, but the reason we do it is because of our implicit trust, and love.

tb

TB I will use this response to you to hopefully put an end to this thread. If anyone has suggestions, they can send a private message. The purpose of the trip was to have Mark enjoy China so that he would want to come back later and see family members who live very far away. Just talked to him and he is discouraged in that he spends too much time cooped up inside and says that when he is out the uncle won't let him get more than 10 feet away. The longer it goes on like this, the less likely Mark will want to visit China in the future. There are many other things he could be doing. For instance, next week there is a Boy Scout camp that he absolutely loved last year. Sorry he will probably miss it this year, but there is some chance he may be home by then.

Mark, has done very well in just about all ways imaginable. Straight As the last 3 years. Many friends. Teachers love him. I understand the family's motivations and fears come from a good place. Yet, I am the ultimate decision maker (and so far things have been going pretty well) for what is best for Mark. If the family feels that they cannot in good conscience let Mark explore Wuhan, then the family should not be taking care of Mark, and it is time for me to bring him home under my direct responsibility.

TB your response comes from exactly the same place as the uncle's. The ultimate question is: whose judgment is correct? [Is Wuhan in the afternoon with a guide unsafe?], and if no agreement can be reached on an important matter then it is time for the child to come home. I appreciate where you are coming from, but disagree with your conclusion.

In bj and sh the weekly mags are chalked full of kids' activities. Do some research on your own for wuhan. If mark was three years older he would surely like China more.

I'd like to add that practicing Chinese with his family would allow him to actually get real experience. Honestly, I've encountered too many students learning Chinese in large classes who have horrible tones because the class is too big for the teacher to correct all the students.

If your son has a decent foundation, it might prove useful to encourage interaction with the relatives.

True, but they are elders. Practicing Chinese with two boys his age and a 23 year old might be more interesting.

Have good news. I contacted my son's 35-year-old cousin who lives in Los Angeles. (Niece of the uncle). She told the Uncle that the guide had an American boyfriend and explained how American children were raised differently than Chinese children. Everyone also assumed that I knew the boyfriend well. (I didn't) The Uncle was happy to then let my son go with the guide. My son has had 2 real good excursions with the guide. Luck and a lot of work on my side (many emails and many contacts to many people) solved the problem.

Both my son and the family will benefit greatly from the arrangement.

Happy to hear it, DB. My adopted cousin has been back to Korea a few times, first with her mom (my aunt) and a group of people, and then most recently with just herself and another girl from same group (all Koreans). One of the "host" families from the first trip agreed to host the 20 and 21 year old girls traveling alone. For three weeks, they were forced to remain indoor much in the same manner as you described for Mark. The older hosts felt responsible for these "girls", even through they were independent, responsible women here in the US. THe entire trip was wasted, and highlights were when other pairs of girls, also traveling alone but with more flexible hosts, stopped by the apartment to share picture from their adventures. I am glad to see that Mark will look back on this as a great experience. He sure lucky to have a mother so in-tuned, and concerned, about his happiness.

Tell him to stick with Scouts, too. I think everyday about how the Scout Law and Scout Oath have made me who I am today and gotten me where I am (nb: currently unemployed :().

Be prepared.

An Eagle Scout award was the deciding factor on three hiring/promotion that I have not regretted making.

ucla Just for clarification, I am the father, not the mother.

DB

Before this gets to be ancient history, I wanted to post about my 12-year-old son's 2 month experience with his aunt and uncle in Wuhan. After I thought that I had the problem of Mark being cooped up in his room taken care of by what I thought was the family's acceptance of the guide, the guide took my son to play Mah Jong. (Mark loved playing it and wanted to buy a table to play it in the U.S.) Mark's aunt hated the idea and abused the guide for taking Mark to play Mah Jong. In fact, she made up a story about hearing from Mark's sister that Mark gambled while playing mah jong. Mark got so upset about his aunt's activities and the incorrect accusations that gambling went on that he wanted to come home.

The fact that he wanted to come home because of the accusations jolted the family into giving the guide a little more respect. However, it turned out that the guide could only take Mark out about every 2d or 3rd day because the family often would find a reason to cancel plans that Mark had made with the guide at the last minute. In any event, Mark got to get out on some occasions, which was good, but not enough which was not so good. On the other hand, his sister who is fluent in Chinese attended a Chinese school and did well.

Should add that I talked to Chinese people in the U.S., and they told me that 99% of the people who play Mah Jong in China gamble. So, I partly understand the negative reaction to the guide having taken Mark to play Mah Jong. On the other hand, it is difficult for me to understand the abuse that was heaped on the guide, who was always very generous and kind to Mark. (She even loaned Mark an expensive camera.)

Also, during the posting that occurred before someone asked why I hadn't planned more for Mark's activities before he got to Wuhan. In fact, I attempted to make plans, but my main contact (a son-in-law of an aunt) told me to wait until Mark got there. So, I deferred to his suggestion.

The bottom line is that there were a lot of cultural misunderstandings, and I now know what has to be done ahead of time before I take my children to China -- There has to be clearly accepted plans for the children to go out and experience the city. Without clear understandings ahead of time, any visits to Wuhan will be relatively short. Should add that Mark really likes to travel and has asked me if he can go to France next.

Thanks to everyone, particularly, Tentseller, for all of their help and insight.

(bolding mine)

Thanks for the update. I think Mark's choice says it all. This China trip probably is more a learning experience for you, instead of your son.