Flying without any security?
 

Some people believe that, if we allowed planes to fly without elaborate security procedures, the world would come to an end. Apparently the sensible people of New Zealand don't share that view. On September 26, I flew from Christchurch to Queenstown, two cities on New Zealand's South Island, 216 miles apart. I went to the Christchurch Airport, checked in for the flight to Queenstown and was told to head to Gate 9. I noticed that only passengers heading to Gates 1-5 had to pass through any security. The other gates, all for domestic flights, were completely security-free. When it was time to board my flight to Queenstown, we simply walked out to the plane and got on board. No security of any kind. And this goes on day after day without any kind of problem! Wouldn't it be nice if the U.S. could do the same thing?

Bruce

It would be nice, but I still remember 9/11. So our reality is much different from our fantasies.

Land of the free and home of the brave. :(

And I remember the Civil War. Should we still have martial law and suspension of habeas corpus? When do we get back to normal?

Bruce

Passenger screening for weapons in the U.S. dates back another 4 decades to when a number of malcontents opted for layovers in Havana.

What about 9/11 makes you so scared? What an over-used, pathetic excuse 9/11 has become.

Some airlines still let pax into the flight deck while the plane is in flight. @:-)

I did that on the Concorde! (Pre-9/11/01, of course.)

Bruce

Maybe the US should try no security for a year and see what happens. It would be quite an experiment. Which politician do you think would take this idea on? Hillary Clinton, maybe?

I never got a Concorde ride. :(

Nowhere to go...
 

Of course, even if someone were inspired to hijack a plane from ZQN or CHC... where would they go??!! The "West Island" is too bloody far away and nobody wants to go there anyway. :D

Last time I was able to do that was in 2005 on OS returning from VIE to YUL, somewhere above Tadoussac. As a non-North American carrier, it remains pilot's discretion.

Of course, the late-evening flight YYZ-YUL all in the jumpseat of a 330 in August 2001 was very memorable (top of descent is at Kingston, and you can already see the lights of Montreal!) as was the same experience BOS-YUL a few years earlier in a CRJ. Oh well... no more of that, unfortunately.

We can do this, but I think it also has to be in conjunction with the Administration scaling back its rhetoric on "terror".

The rhetoric alone leads to two related, but dissimilar results:

1) Wannabe copycat "terrorists" are motivated to exploit what they see as an obvious source of fear, despite not having the resources to plan or implement their desires.

and 2), Law enforcement is held to a standard that they cannot meet, so they sometimes panic when confronted by anything outside their comfort range.

The last six years have been badly mishandled. We've known about the Copycat Effect for a long time, but for political reasons have ignored it when it comes to "terror".

We have met the enemy, and he is us.

I saw it twice about four weeks ago on Austral on the Trelew-Calafate and Ushuaia to Rio Gallegos routes. Both times on an MD-80. Of course, since we flew over an enormous glacier on approach into Calafate, everyone was trying to snap all kind of pictures.

I still remember 9/11. So what's you point?

By "our reality" I'm not understanding who you are referring to. Certainly not myself, because I harbor no such baseless fear about the particular acts carried on that tragic, horrible day having anything to with possible future attacks in some other, possible worlds.

OT: Really?!? There was a really good thread a few years back in Trip Reports on reminiscences about flight decks visits while airborne, and almost all of the posts were about pre-9/11 flights. The discussion included speculation about whether any carriers even allowed this anymore and I don't think there many exceptions to the new.

If you know of airlines that still allow this, either as a matter of policy or of courtesy, please let us know! :-:

There has to be a happy medium. I don't think the post-9/11 security measures (kippie bags, shoes off, pat-downs, bans on snoglobes, etc.) make us any safer. It's all theatre, of course. Baggage x-ray...okay, understandable. But short of body cavity searches, I don't see how you can assure perfect safety.

While not openly inviting pax to visit the cockpit, my last few flights on Aeromexico and a recent flight on Aerolineas Argentina operated the entire flight with the cockpit doors wide open.

Granted these are both "third-world" airlines but it was somewhat strange nevertheless.

I can't speak for Aerolineas but to call them "third-world" airlines really bothers me. That's a very ethnocentric view you have. Did you know that Mexico is not even considered a third-world country?

I don't really see how anyone can seriously compare a domestic flight in New Zealand with a domestic flight from BOS-LAX.

First, a transcon in the US is the equivalent of crossing multiple countries is most of the world.

Second, the US is actually a target of terrorism (the "why" is another discussion altogether). I don't recall hearing about any plots to wipe out a sheep farm near Christchurch.

That's why I put "third-world" in quotes.

I don't consider either country to be as developed as the US.

Whether that makes them first, second or third world is debatable but the fact that their airlines often fly with open cockpit doors is bizarre.

While I don't think Mexico is third world country at this point, I certainly don't think it's first world either. Maybe we can compromise and call it second world.

A part of me loves this idea, even on a trial basis. ^

It's not the terrorist we need to fear. Obviously they have a (what was the detection failure rate anyway?) 95% chance of getting something onboard without a lot of effort. I think it is the odd whackjob who decides it's time to check out and wouldn't it be cool to take a plane load of people with me. Now they go shooting up college campuses, or high schools, or just take their family and kids with them. Imagine if airplanes were suddenly easily available for use by anyone with a grudge. That's my hesitation. As useless as the checkpoints are they probably slow down the local loon.

The airline I was refering to is Austral, which is owned by Aerolineas Argentinas. I wouldn't call Argentina or Austral 3rd world, but the fleet of MD-80s were showing their age. :D Now that I think of it, Aerolineas proper did this as well on their new 735, but they shut the door about halfway through the flight.

Several passengers went onto the flight deck with cameras. I was a little shocked seeing it at first, but I laughed at it afterwards.

Argentina is a great country.

Many years ago, I used to fly regularly from SFO to LAX. Here is how I did it:

1. Got myself to SFO.
2. Walked up to a counter in the terminal and paid cash for a ticket to LAX.
3. Went to the gate to wait for the announcement.
4. When the flight was announced, walked out onto the tarmac.
5. Climbed up the stairs which had been brought against the plane.
6. Found my seat and sat down.

I am not making this up.

First world countries pay their debts.

I've done the exact same thing as you. Additionally, I've taken some domestic Australian flights were no security was involved. I don't have any problems with it for some of the regional airports here in the US, but I feel a level of sensible security is needed on routes outside of the regionals.

Overseas, I've seen a lot of interesting things since 9/11. Life goes on, you can't live in fear. Unfortunately it was a major tragedy, but for those who use the 9/11 argument, in a free country such as the USA there will always be risk. The risk can't be eliminated completely. Risk management procedures can be put into place without giving up civil liberties, but the DHS/TSA and company seem to want 100% risk avoidance despite their double-speak about risk management.

It's sad to see US Customs and Border Patrol power trip on US citizens during re-entry while we have a huge southern border anyone can get across. Same applies to the Canadian border, but I don't see it as much as an issue (aside from Canada's open door migration policy) since the only way in is by air and Canadian immigrations seem to do a decent job. Mexico -- Anyone can get into Mexico and slip across the border. It's not like Mexico has strict passport control at their points of entry combined with their southern border.

Many non US carriers aren't completely paranoid about things such as blocking the aisles when the cockpit door opens. FWIW, I've been on flights where the cockpit door was left open much of the flight while a jumpseater up front and an FA spoke to each other.

I've experienced the open cockpit doors on KLM intra-EU flights on their 737s.

I have run into the same thing when flying on small craft going through the Canadian Arctic... no screening, cockpit door left open.

And before you say but there is nothing in the arctic, there are plenty of military establishments and NORAD bases/radar stations etc. Maybe the Inuit and Dene just aren't as paranoid as the rest of our continent.

I did that on the Concorde, too -- post 9/11. (See link.) How wonderful not to be subjected to the paranoia of the TSA and US-based airlines!

The good old days....We used to be able buy by these from the harware store http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/ but should we allow it once again?

I remember flying Provincetown-Boston Airlines (PBA) intra-Florida when there wasn't a cockpit door or even a cockpit. The 8 or so pax just sat in the same cabin with the solitary pilot.

Where the co-pilot would normally sit was used as just another pax seat.

What a difference a few years makes. :)

9/11 is over: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/30/op...on&oref=slogin

Even seeing the thread title alone I wondered if it was about NZ domestic prop flights. Yup only jet flights (or rather a/c with 100+ seats) and all international flights require security here.

Flying puddlejumpers (eg Beech 1900D) there is no door to shut. Jetstream32, while uncomfortable a/c to fly in, is even better. If you can get the middle bulkhead seat you are right behind the pilots where a door would be on a bigger aircraft.

You can even find this in the U.S., today! Just fly ScenicAir from North Las Vegas to the Grand Canyon.

Or, in Canada, fly a Twin Otter between Victoria and Vancouver Harbor.

PenAir, Anchorage to Dutch Harbor, has no security and even involves a decent-sized airport. The plane, though, is a Saab 340 - maybe there is a jet/prop distinction.

Used to be that planes with less than a certain number of pax didn't need screening. At one time (mid 90's), there was a group of 2-3 gates at one end of a DFW concourse that was unsecured and used by a small set of commuter flights using small aircraft. I forget what the number was, but it was on the order of 15, 16 people.

I, too, recall when airlines left the flight deck open. I was on an Austrian transatlantic flight where the flight deck was open from push-back to gate arrival. Yet we (and all other flights) had armed escort from landing to the gate....

Mesa Air (until April 2007) with flights Watertown NY to Pittsburgh used the Beech 1900D. Big Sky Airlines took over and offers flights to Boston and Albany and they also use the Beech 1900D. In fact, I believe they bought their planes from Mesa!

Probably not many terrorists flying through Watertown NY these days!

Used to be that planes with less than a certain number of pax didn't need screening. At one time (mid 90's), there was a group of 2-3 gates at one end of a DFW concourse that was unsecured and used by a small set of commuter flights using small aircraft. I forget what the number was, but it was on the order of 15, 16 people.

I, too, recall when airlines left the flight deck open. I was on an Austrian transatlantic flight where the flight deck was open from push-back to gate arrival. Yet we (and all other flights) had armed escort from landing to the gate....

IIRC, If the plane carries less than 19 pax, so like anything smaller than a Beech 19000D, and it arrives and departs from non-secure sections of airports then it doesn't need security screening.