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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Flying is a right, not a privilege. (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/567788-flying-right-not-privilege.html)

24th ID Jun 11, 2006 9:51 pm

Hmmm
 
Haven't we had this discussion berfore? :D

Superguy Jun 11, 2006 9:53 pm


Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
By the way, Bart nailed this issue. Until another court decides otherwise, y'all are cryin' over spilt milk.

Not necessarily.

This is my understanding, so if I am mistaken, would a lawyer please correct me? :)

The way the federal court system works in matters like this is that if a district court makes a decision, it applies to the area that court has jurisdiction over. A similar case could be brought forth in a different jurisdiction and be decided a completely different way.

The only way a decision could reach the entire country is if SCOTUS makes the call.

TerminalBliss Jun 11, 2006 9:56 pm


Originally Posted by Superguy
Not necessarily.

This is my understanding, so if I am mistaken, would a lawyer please correct me? :)

The way the federal court system works in matters like this is that if a district court makes a decision, it applies to the area that court has jurisdiction over. A similar case could be brought forth in a different jurisdiction and be decided a completely different way.

The only way a decision could reach the entire country is if SCOTUS makes the call.

Nope...it's official case precedence now my friend. SCOTUS could choose to hear an appeal and either reverse, affirm, or remand the decision. In the meantime, the decision applies throughout the US.

24th ID Jun 11, 2006 9:59 pm


Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
Nope...it's official case precedence now my friend. SCOTUS could choose to hear an appeal and either reverse, affirm, or remand the decision. In the meantime, the decision applies throughout the US.


A big "roger that"!

Superguy Jun 11, 2006 10:04 pm


Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
Nope...it's official case precedence now my friend. SCOTUS could choose to hear an appeal and either reverse, affirm, or remand the decision. In the meantime, the decision applies throughout the US.

Fortunately, precedent isn't law, and they do change from time to time. Segregation was justified by precedent, but another SCOTUS at another time said that didn't fly.

I think the challenge can be brought again in a different way. I hope it does, as this is a very bad decision.

dhuey Jun 11, 2006 10:10 pm


Originally Posted by whirledtraveler
Or so says the US Code:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...e=49&sec=40103


Please bookmark this thread so that we can put to rest the notion that there is no right to fly.

Please bookmark this link to Gilmore v. Gonzales so that we can put to rest the notion that there is a constitutional right to fly. I know the OP wasn't making this argument, but many on FT do.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/...h/0415736p.pdf

Now, is there a federal statutory right to fly? Well, it's interesting that neither Gilmore nor the Ninth Circuit even made any arguments under 49 U.S.C. Section 40103. I looked at the list of cases citing this section, and none seemed to pertain to any individual rights.

The Declaration of Independence holds it to be a self-evident right to the "pursuit of Happiness". However, saying there is a right in the abstract doesn't necessarily get you too far in court.

Doppy Jun 11, 2006 10:14 pm


Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
Nope...it's official case precedence now my friend. SCOTUS could choose to hear an appeal and either reverse, affirm, or remand the decision. In the meantime, the decision applies throughout the US.

We can also pursue legislative or constitutional remedies to further enumerate our rights. I know this kind of thinking is anathema to many komrades these days, however.

TerminalBliss Jun 11, 2006 10:33 pm


Originally Posted by Superguy
Fortunately, precedent isn't law, and they do change from time to time. Segregation was justified by precedent, but another SCOTUS at another time said that didn't fly.

I think the challenge can be brought again in a different way. I hope it does, as this is a very bad decision.

Until it's challenged, case precedence is, in fact, "law."

stare decisis: Latin for "to stand by a decision," the doctrine that a trial court is bound by appellate court decisions (precedents) on a legal question which is raised in the lower court. Reliance on such precedents is required of trial courts until such time as an appellate court changes the rule, for the trial court cannot ignore the precedent (even when the trial judge believes it is "bad law").

Lehava Jun 11, 2006 10:45 pm


Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
Damn, wish I lived in a country where I could just go out, get drunk, raise hell, get behind the wheel and be free from them pesky damn coppers! Uh, yeah, almost forgot, I wish that after I got in my car, I could drive my drunk self to the nearest airport, and exercise my unalienable right to put myself on a commercial aircraft and travel to wherever my heart desires. While we're at it, I think I should be able to bring my 9" Bowie, two hand grenades, my sawed-off shotgun, and a crossbow. Friggin' government ruins everything!"

You forgot bringing EVERY piece of clothing you own on board with you and spending the flight curled up in the lap of the person behind you, because unlimited carry on baggage and reclining are amongst the Flyertalk Bill of Rights *smirk*

dhuey Jun 11, 2006 10:55 pm


Originally Posted by TerminalBliss
Nope...it's official case precedence now my friend. SCOTUS could choose to hear an appeal and either reverse, affirm, or remand the decision. In the meantime, the decision applies throughout the US.

First off, I beg you not to use this West Wing inspired acronym for the Supreme Court of the United States. Isn't "US Supreme Ct." short enough for you?

Now, here's how precedent works in the federal judiciary. In the 94 judicial districts, the bankruptcy and district court opinions are merely persuasive precedents. In unrelated cases, other courts may choose to follow them, but they are not required to do so.

Next level up: the 13 Courts of Appeals. There are twelve regional circuits and a specialized Federal Circuit. A regional circuit's opinion is not controlling precedent outside of the circuit, but is only persuasive. So, to say a decision by a circuit or district court "applies throughout the US" is at best misleading. Quite often, circuits reach contradictory results on the same questions of law, and for that we go to...

The Supreme Court of the United States. You don't need a law degree to know that all federal courts are bound by its decisions on matters of federal law. However, the highest court of each state is actually the final authority on matters of state law, so long as such rulings are not inconsistent with the U.S. Constitution or federal law that validly preempts state law.

Whom do I bill for this?

24th ID Jun 11, 2006 11:00 pm


Originally Posted by Lehava
......reclining are amongst the Flyertalk Bill of Rights *smirk*

I haven't flown with many Flyertalkers then.... :D

dhuey Jun 11, 2006 11:05 pm


Originally Posted by Superguy
Fortunately, precedent isn't law, and they do change from time to time. Segregation was justified by precedent, but another SCOTUS at another time said that didn't fly.

I think the challenge can be brought again in a different way. I hope it does, as this is a very bad decision.

Precedent is law. It might be controlling, or merely persuasive (see above). It might "bad" law in that it is inconsistent with controlling authority, or with the great weight of decisions on the same question. It might one day be overturned, but it's still law.

WorldwideNomad Jun 12, 2006 1:53 am

Not a criminal, I pay, I fly. That's my right.

whirledtraveler Jun 12, 2006 5:08 am


Originally Posted by schwarm
Now, I'm not a lawyer, and I haven't gone back and looked through the whole code (not even sure if that's the right terminology). However, the above sections appear to me to be written in specific reference to the American with Disabilities Act (or similar legislation). One thing I do know for sure is that the entirety of the written legal system is a messy, often self-contradictory jumble (or why else would we need lawyers). I'm sure there are other sections that absolutely contradict this one, and are far more relevant.

Now, I'm not in favor of pointless harassment as an impedement to travel, but it is simply misleading to quote out-of-context.

So, you'd like the entire US Code posted here?

This section describes a right to fly, and it is hard to read it as protecting only people with disabilities who own their own private aircraft.

whirledtraveler Jun 12, 2006 5:12 am


Originally Posted by dhuey
Please bookmark this link to Gilmore v. Gonzales so that we can put to rest the notion that there is a constitutional right to fly. I know the OP wasn't making this argument, but many on FT do.

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/...h/0415736p.pdf

That doesn't put it to rest. The court was wrong.


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