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[QUOTE=vivalitalia]
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Originally Posted by Bart
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I am female. I was traveling through CMH in a suit. I was traveling in a suit and carrying a raincoat. I mindlessly put change into the suit jacket pocket. There was so much confusion at the x-ray machine (people taking off their shoes, not having enough baskets, the TSA x-ray reader moving stuff in and out of the machine, the loud recorded announcements about who knows what--you eventually don't even listen any longer) that even had some recorded voice told me to take stuff out of my "pockets" I wouldn't have even heard them. So I go through innocently (I am 5'1'', petite in size, I was well-dressed) and the young man said to me, "Ma'am, you'll need to take your "coat" off and send it through the machine." I said, my coat is already on the other side. "No, ma'am [and he points to my suitcoat/jacket/blazer] and says "that", you have something in your pocket." I asked, "What?" "I don't know ma'am (God, I hate that word--it is so condescending and nasal) you'll have to send you coat through." "Can't I take whatever is in my pocket out and go through again?" "No, ma'am." I had a sheer shell on that was too tight because I was in the middle of my monthly period and I was HUGE. So off I go to the glass prison cell, petrified because I had just refused to do something TSA told me to do. (Yes, petrified. I guess they have too much power over me and I don't like being rendered powerless, no woman does. Can't there be some civility in TSA to be sensitive to how WOMEN feel about this? We're not men and it really does make a difference.) So they start moving chairs around, and I think, God, now what? For some reason I had to be searched facing the BELT and if I understood the discussion properly so another TSA WOMAN could "observe." Great. A freak show. The woman searching me said, "You're going to have to take of your jacket off or I will have to pat you down (or whatever the expression is that they use)" (By the way, I am in my stocking feet the whole time, my phone is lying on top of my real coat, and my purse and my bag are at the end of the belt just waiting for someone take something, and I can't talk because I'm about to cry. Even as I write this, I'm crying. I seldom cry so this really affected me badly.) She NEVER said .... only if the wand goes off. Never. It was either/or. So she basically forced me to make a choice facing the entire TSA lineup which for some reason were standing at the exit of the belt watching. By the time I left, I was in tears and I cried for 30 minutes. I was a wreck. I could barely think about it for the four hours it took me to get to BWI without tearing up. And I was made to feel that it was my fault because I wouldn't parade through the gate with my jacket off. So as penance TSA puts me on public display. I'm considering not taking the job even if they offered it to me because I no longer want to travel (and I love to travel hence why I applied for this job), especially through that airport. Is this what the government wants? For their own people to be afraid of them and for people to avoid airline travel? Beyond the emotional aspect of this, I though I had made a legitimate request, to take the money out and walk through again. Why couldn't I just be treated as a human being forgetting to take something out of their pocket? I used to wait forever (yes, I know, pre-9/11) it seemed (when I was an FF) while men went back and forth, back and forth, through the detector gate and it was nearly always "change in the pocket" or the belt buckle. Why are we all guilty until proven innocent? Wouldn't it have taken less time to just let me take the change out, run it through, me through the gate and be done with it? Instead I have to be intimidated and put on public display? And this young man who told me to put my COAT through? Aren't TSA staff taught the proper terms for clothing? It was partly his error that scared me. I had no idea what he was talking about. The U.S. criticizes Europe for "typing". At least there I'm treated as the honest person I am. In the U.S., democracy is now guilty until you're patted down and judged, and victimizated. Lord. What has the American public done to deserve this? Does it really have to be that way? Aren't you training people to use any semblance of common sense? |
Originally Posted by Bart
General comments such as "breast exam" or "groping" or "shoe carnival" are nothing more than rhetoric intended to inflame emotions and imply that TSA deliberately condones abusing the public. These type of comments have no place in a serious discussion between adults.
. . . Fair enough? |
Originally Posted by Bart
This isn't TSA security procedure. Unfortunately, the OP didn't provide all of the facts, so it's hard to judge exactly what happened. Bottom line here is: there should never be a situation when a passenger must expose himself or herself to a screener. If so, then there is something seriously wrong, and I urge the passenger to submit a written complaint.
As for the so-called breast exam comment made by one of the so-called moderators: give it a rest. The screening methods used were carefully designed to clear the breast area with the back of the hand and in such a manner to minimize contact as much as practical. Calling it a breast exam suggests that screeners either grope women or get some sort of thrill out of performing this procedure. This may be popular on the playground with a bunch of giggling adolescents, but I thought this website was for serious discussion between mature adults who share concerns about airport security measures. |
[QUOTE=vivalitalia]
PHP Code:
Originally Posted by Bart
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I am female. I was traveling through CMH in a suit. I was traveling in a suit and carrying a raincoat. I mindlessly put change into the suit jacket pocket. There was so much confusion at the x-ray machine (people taking off their shoes, not having enough baskets, the TSA x-ray reader moving stuff in and out of the machine, the loud recorded announcements about who knows what--you eventually don't even listen any longer) that even had some recorded voice told me to take stuff out of my "pockets" I wouldn't have even heard them. So I go through innocently (I am 5'1'', petite in size, I was well-dressed) and the young man said to me, "Ma'am, you'll need to take your "coat" off and send it through the machine." I said, my coat is already on the other side. "No, ma'am [and he points to my suitcoat/jacket/blazer] and says "that", you have something in your pocket." I asked, "What?" "I don't know ma'am (God, I hate that word--it is so condescending and nasal) you'll have to send you coat through." "Can't I take whatever is in my pocket out and go through again?" "No, ma'am." I had a sheer shell on that was too tight because I was in the middle of my monthly period and I was HUGE. So off I go to the glass prison cell, petrified because I had just refused to do something TSA told me to do. (Yes, petrified. I guess they have too much power over me and I don't like being rendered powerless, no woman does. Can't there be some civility in TSA to be sensitive to how WOMEN feel about this? We're not men and it really does make a difference.) So they start moving chairs around, and I think, God, now what? For some reason I had to be searched facing the BELT and if I understood the discussion properly so another TSA WOMAN could "observe." Great. A freak show. The woman searching me said, "You're going to have to take of your jacket off or I will have to pat you down (or whatever the expression is that they use)" (By the way, I am in my stocking feet the whole time, my phone is lying on top of my real coat, and my purse and my bag are at the end of the belt just waiting for someone take something, and I can't talk because I'm about to cry. Even as I write this, I'm crying. I seldom cry so this really affected me badly.) She NEVER said .... only if the wand goes off. Never. It was either/or. So she basically forced me to make a choice facing the entire TSA lineup which for some reason were standing at the exit of the belt watching. By the time I left, I was in tears and I cried for 30 minutes. I was a wreck. I could barely think about it for the four hours it took me to get to BWI without tearing up. And I was made to feel that it was my fault because I wouldn't parade through the gate with my jacket off. So as penance TSA puts me on public display. I'm considering not taking the job even if they offered it to me because I no longer want to travel (and I love to travel hence why I applied for this job), especially through that airport. Is this what the government wants? For their own people to be afraid of them and for people to avoid airline travel? Beyond the emotional aspect of this, I though I had made a legitimate request, to take the money out and walk through again. Why couldn't I just be treated as a human being forgetting to take something out of their pocket? I used to wait forever (yes, I know, pre-9/11) it seemed (when I was an FF) while men went back and forth, back and forth, through the detector gate and it was nearly always "change in the pocket" or the belt buckle. Why are we all guilty until proven innocent? Wouldn't it have taken less time to just let me take the change out, run it through, me through the gate and be done with it? Instead I have to be intimidated and put on public display? And this young man who told me to put my COAT through? Aren't TSA staff taught the proper terms for clothing? It was partly his error that scared me. I had no idea what he was talking about. The U.S. criticizes Europe for "typing". At least there I'm treated as the honest person I am. In the U.S., democracy is now guilty until you're patted down and judged, and victimizated. Lord. What has the American public done to deserve this? Does it really have to be that way? Aren't you training people to use any semblance of common sense? |
Originally Posted by myrgirl
The next time you pass through the airport, you'll know what to expect and can dress accordingly.
<snip> For the most part, we just want to get you through, and on with your day. Being asked to pull down one's everyday, ordinary trousers for a looksee? Getting felt around the breast for an underwire?? Wouldn't a visual inspection truly be safer?? How do you know it's not a wire connected to something more sinister? I have to ask, and not rhetorically I might add. If by appropriate you mean that common streetwear is now that great of a liability to air safety, then, to use the vernacular, the terrorists really have won. We've slid down the hillside so far already I shudder to think just where the absurdity will stop. I fear civil collapse to some significant degree within my lifetime. I really do. |
I totally agree with essxjay - when we have to change the way we dress in order to get through an airport with the least possible inconvenience - and even then there are no guarantees - the terrorists have indeed won.
Please. You are seriously over-reacting. People get wanded and patted down every single day. You getting secondary is no different than anyone else getting secondary. If you were so concerned that people were watching you, why didn't you ask if this procedure could be done in private? |
Originally Posted by essxjay
While I believe your sincerity in wanting to post helpful info, the essential issue on the table is the nature of appropriate dressing to just get us on our way.
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Originally Posted by red456
Do not presume, myrgirl to tell someone that they are over-reacting. You don't have a clue in the world as to why this person reacted the way she did to a secondary. We've been through this time and again - she could have very valid reasons for being petrified at the idea of a secondary. And whether or not the procedure was done in private is not the issue - unwanted touching is the issue.
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Originally Posted by myrgirl
You're right, I don't have a clue why she reacted the way she did. I am baffled as to why someone would get to the point where they are crying and afraid to take a job position all over a simple little something that hundreds of people do every single day. I do apologize for presuming.
If I did not fly on a regular basis, follow FT, pay attention to aviation news, etc., and some random security guard somewhere (courthouse, sporting event, whatever) decided to pat me down because I refused to undress for them, I would feel like I was being treated like a criminal and be somewhat upset. And I'm not a very sensitive person. In fact, I would argue that most all Americans, if suddenly fastforwarded from 1990s airport screening to today's patdown procedures, would be upset and feel violated. What is very sad is that my future children will probably think nothing of full-body patdowns to enter public venues and of being made to undress to prove they are not a bad guy. The terrorists are winning, and instead of killing them and their supporers indiscriminately in their homelands and focusing on the groups that actually commit the terrorists acts (which would admittedly be treating some people like crap), we are treating everyone like crap in the name of "equality." :mad: |
Originally Posted by vivalitalia
So off I go to the glass prison cell, petrified because I had just refused to do something TSA told me to do. (Yes, petrified. I guess they have too much power over me and I don't like being rendered powerless, no woman does. Can't there be some civility in TSA to be sensitive to how WOMEN feel about this? We're not men and it really does make a difference.)
I'm considering not taking the job even if they offered it to me because I no longer want to travel (and I love to travel hence why I applied for this job), especially through that airport. Is this what the government wants? For their own people to be afraid of them and for people to avoid airline travel? In the U.S., democracy is now guilty until you're patted down and judged, and victimizated. Lord. What has the American public done to deserve this? First, let me say that no one has a right to criticize you for your reactions to the screener's indecent invasion of your personal space. Just because something is "standard procedure" or "hundreds of other people do it everyday" does NOT make it right. This kind of treatment is immoral, inhumane, and despicable, and I would have very similar reactions to yours. The TSA terrifies me. I have been abused in even more dramatic fashion than what you experienced, and I am afraid. Don't let anyone tell you that you are the problem - the TSA's procedures are the problem. You can help end this disgrace by writing a letter to the TSA's Office of Civil Rights about your experience. Please copy it also to John Mica, who chairs the House Aviation Subcommittee. Addresses for these can be found at http://www.dontgrope.us/ (scroll all the way down and click on letters section) There are also some sample letters there. The good news is that there is hope. Public pressure caused the TSA to back down from its stance on breast touching for all female secondary selectees. The voice of reason and modesty won once, and we should keep pushing until the TSA gets the message: unwanted touching IS a big deal, and it is not acceptable. |
Originally Posted by studentff
<snip>
...and focusing on the groups that actually commit the terrorists acts (which would admittedly be treating some people like crap), we are treating everyone like crap in the name of "equality." :mad: Egalitarianism, indeed. |
Originally Posted by studentff
The terrorists are winning, and instead of killing them and their supporers indiscriminately in their homelands and focusing on the groups that actually commit the terrorists acts (which would admittedly be treating some people like crap), we are treating everyone like crap in the name of "equality." :mad:
The number one issue FF’ers have with the TSA is that we are ALL assumed and presumed to be blood-thirsty, fire-breathing wanton terrorists until we prove otherwise at the TSA checkponts. And the truth be known, 99.99999999999+% of the screened pax are just ordinary everyday travelers with no more nefarious intent than how to get to where they’re headed in an expeditious, humane fashion. Now the standard comeback to this statement includes the following in some form: “Yeah but how about that .0000000001% who ARE terrorists?? Should we just ignore everybody and let that .0000000001% through to do their thing?” Screening for heavy-duty weapons like guns and knives is fine. It’s been done for years and I have no problem with it. Look at the bags/people that pass through for the obvious. But don’t hold things up for all the asinine stuff like butter knives, nail clippers,corkscrews, lighters, shoes and whatever else will be added to the list in the future. We’ve carried the security process far beyond what was needed to prevent another 9/11. The terrorists probably thought bringing down the Twin Towers was to be their crowning achievement. IMHO, they struck a much bigger blow to the US in helping to create the incredible overreaction to airport security that is now embodied by the TSA. |
The terrorists are winning, and instead of killing them and their supporers indiscriminately in their homelands and focusing on the groups that actually commit the terrorists acts Killing terrorists and their supporters indiscriminately is not going to work. I don't have a complete answer to the problem - and there might not be one - but trying to kill them all is not the answer. |
Originally Posted by myrgirl
I am baffled as to why someone would get to the point where they are crying and afraid to take a job position all over a simple little something that hundreds of people do every single day.
I object to and resent the impositions and (perceived by me) indignities in the Name of Security© just because I want to fly from A to B. Nothing I can say by way of explanation or justification of my feelings will have the slightest effect on those who do not share my point of view. And the opposite is true, you will never convince me that I should meekly accept your 'simple little things', let alone willingly embrace them. But we will continue to use bandwidth in a vain attempt to do so. Not altogether a bad thing though, if it can be done with respect. |
[QUOTE=PatrickHenry1775]
Originally Posted by vivalitalia
[PHP]
If by "typing" you mean concentrating on certain individuals because of national origin or "religious affiliation", what is commonly called "profiling", the p.c. police here in the States may criticize that practice. However, just today, members of a certain group committed two terrorist attacks against tourists in Cairo. Care to take a guess about the common characteristic of the attackers? No, they were not Boy Scouts. No, they were not Swedish exchange students. No, they were not Hasidic jewelers. Right, they were "Islamic" radicals, nuts who have perverted a religion into a random cult of violence against innocent people. Thanks to Norman Mineta, who because of his unfortunate experience as a child after Pearl Harbor is apparently dead set against concentrating on foreigners who are members of this "religious affiliation" responsible for so much terrorism in the world today, all Americans are treated as guilty until proven innocent by TSA's crude methods. And some simpletons think air travel is safer today. Unbelievable! |
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