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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Which country has the most intimidating border control? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1511246-country-has-most-intimidating-border-control.html)

WilcoRoger Oct 15, 2013 9:52 pm


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 21610712)
The grateful party should be the receiving state and its residents, as the hosting nation benefits from increased export revenue and higher earnings that are a direct result of foreign visitors.

And of course the United States and its (their?) residents do not need the benefits from increased export revenue and higher earnings you mention?

WilcoRoger Oct 15, 2013 9:59 pm


Originally Posted by AlreadyThere (Post 21610784)
I wholeheartedly disagree. Countries should have a reason for requiring visas other than just a show of government authority.

It's tit-for-tat. While personnally I do enjoy the visa waivers I get due to unilateral decisions of non-EU countries (from Ukraine to Albania, from Thailand to wherever) I have no issues if countries decide that they apply reciprocity towards the EU. (or on this specific case the US)

I find it rather colonial approach, that we (whoever it is) have a rightful need to have a strict visa regime in place for incoming visitors, but expect to be treated differently by the home states of the same visitors.

LETTERBOY Oct 15, 2013 11:25 pm


Originally Posted by AlreadyThere (Post 21610784)
Countries should have a reason for requiring visas other than just a show of government authority.

IMO, sovereign nations have the right to use whatever criteria they choose when deciding who to admit to their country. If Brazil doesn't like how we admit people to the US, tough. It's our country. Conversely, if the US doesn't like how Brazil admits people, tough. It's their country.

makos Oct 16, 2013 4:38 am


Originally Posted by AlreadyThere (Post 21606526)
Well, not really. The US is trying to solve a specific problem that is almost certainly not a problem for Brazil, namely citizens of the other country intending to overstay a visa-free period, possibly to work. It's why the US doesn't require a visa for citizens of W Europe, Singapore, Japan etc. but does require one for E Europe, most of S America, etc. even though those places don't require visas for US citizens.

So it's kind of a false reciprocity.

What do you consider E Europe? All the former Soviet block countries that are now part of the EU do not require VISAs to the US anyomre. They are on the VWP also.

GUWonder Oct 16, 2013 4:58 am


Originally Posted by WilcoRoger (Post 21614730)
And of course the United States and its (their?) residents do not need the benefits from increased export revenue and higher earnings you mention?

Different countries benefit differently.

Some countries shoot themselves in the foot by becoming less welcoming or partnering with those who are less welcoming -- the US has certainly cost itself a bunch of money, not that it is in as much need of foreign hard currency reserves as some other countries with large debt overhangs and higher inflation figures.

Sjoerd Oct 16, 2013 6:18 am


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 21615805)
the US has certainly cost itself a bunch of money, not that it is in as much need of foreign hard currency reserves as some other countries with large debt overhangs

Indeed. You should be grateful the USA doesn't have any debts. ;)

Spiff Oct 16, 2013 6:20 am


Originally Posted by AlreadyThere (Post 21608582)
Israel -- depends on who you are (thorough profiling, which I believe is justified in their case)

Profiling is never, ever justified.

I will not visit Israel by air, and am unlikely to do so by land, either. :td:

Sjoerd Oct 16, 2013 6:47 am


Originally Posted by makos (Post 21615756)
What do you consider E Europe? All the former Soviet block countries that are now part of the EU do not require VISAs to the US anyomre. They are on the VWP also.

Not all of them. Poland, Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia do not qualify for VWP.

GUWonder Oct 16, 2013 7:05 am


Originally Posted by Sjoerd (Post 21616037)
Indeed. You should be grateful the USA doesn't have any debts. ;)

.... the debt is USD-denominated, so the need for foreign hard currency reserves is rather different.

... and given how much borrowing power the US has used and how dependent the foreign creditors and international markets are on the USD and US debt instruments and derivatives on those securities, the US is in a rather different and unique financial position and has been in such position for decades. Not that it will necessarily all end well -- as it will take down a lot of "creditors" and others down with it. :eek:

makos Oct 16, 2013 7:17 am


Originally Posted by Sjoerd (Post 21616134)
Not all of them. Poland, Bulgaria, Romania and Croatia do not qualify for VWP.

Croatia just joined the EU:) but you are right on the others.

GUWonder Oct 16, 2013 7:27 am


Originally Posted by makos (Post 21616269)
Croatia just joined the EU:) but you are right on the others.

Sjoerd is correct about all of them, including about Croatia which is part of the EU (for months now) but wasn't as much in the Soviet bloc as some of the other Eastern European countries in the EU.

AlreadyThere Oct 16, 2013 11:14 am


Originally Posted by LETTERBOY (Post 21615009)
IMO, sovereign nations have the right to use whatever criteria they choose when deciding who to admit to their country. If Brazil doesn't like how we admit people to the US, tough. It's our country. Conversely, if the US doesn't like how Brazil admits people, tough. It's their country.

I'm not saying those countries don't have the right to require visas -- of course they do. I just distinguish between governments that require them for specific reasons, versus ones that just wish to demonstrate that they can, at whatever cost to their people / tourist industry.

On a micro scale, it's like when a border guard gives you a hard time not because he suspects anything, but just because he feels like demonstrating his authority over you. Of course he has the legal right to do this.

WilcoRoger Oct 17, 2013 8:44 am

I think if you turned around your argumentation, ie "countries have the right to waive visa requirements" the picture would be rather different - and actually if you think of the language used by the US, as in "visa waiver programme" it seems that the need for visas is the general rule.

AlreadyThere Oct 18, 2013 7:48 pm


Originally Posted by WilcoRoger (Post 21622843)
I think if you turned around your argumentation, ie "countries have the right to waive visa requirements" the picture would be rather different - and actually if you think of the language used by the US, as in "visa waiver programme" it seems that the need for visas is the general rule.

That's because until fairly recently, the US required a visa for almost everybody, until it started relaxing this where it was deemed no longer necessary. (The need for visas to the US only began after WWI with Europeans flocking here in large numbers, so it was not always the case.)

AlreadyThere Oct 18, 2013 7:50 pm

I believe the truly most vile exercise of border crossing authority comes from those governments that require exit visas, from visitors and/or their own citizens.


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