FlyerTalk Forums

FlyerTalk Forums (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/index.php)
-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Laptops before 9/11 (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1332651-laptops-before-9-11-a.html)

cestmoi123 Apr 4, 2012 4:46 pm


Originally Posted by InkUnderNails (Post 18335090)
In the world of my dreams, airlines would choose the level of security they wished to provide and customers could make an informed decision on which airline to use based on their personal preferences. It may be nothing, everything or something in between.

I said I was dreaming, but it is the foundation of liberty.

Agree with you to a degree, but the fact that planes _can_ be turned into missles means that even people not on the planes have a legitimate interest in airlines having sufficient security to make that scenario at least very difficult.

InkUnderNails Apr 4, 2012 7:37 pm


Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 18335363)
Add a complete set of Torx bits, Philips, and hex bits, a torque wrench, and a 2-C MagLite.

I still carry all of this sans torque wrench and the Mag-Lite has been replaced by a P7 Coast.

Pesky Monkey Apr 4, 2012 8:07 pm


Originally Posted by cestmoi123 (Post 18336457)
Agree with you to a degree, but the fact that planes _can_ be turned into missles means that even people not on the planes have a legitimate interest in airlines having sufficient security to make that scenario at least very difficult.

With what we know now, an airliner can't be turned into a missile without the complicity of the pilots, crew, and passengers. it's not a viable threat vector.

linsj Apr 4, 2012 8:15 pm


Originally Posted by mahohmei (Post 18334311)
I had heard stories that, before 9/11, travelers with laptops would be told, by screeners, to take the laptop out of the bag, turn it on, and show a working laptop, simply to prove to the screener that it's a laptop and not a cache of explosives cleverly packed into a gutted laptop chassis.

Did anyone here ever experience that?

Almost every time. Had to be sure the battery had enough power to turn it on.

linsj Apr 4, 2012 8:16 pm


Originally Posted by cestmoi123 (Post 18335085)
WTMD plus xray of hand luggage seems to me to be an entirely reasonable level of security, and a fair balance between security and privacy/dignity/convenience/cost.

I'm with you.

InkUnderNails Apr 4, 2012 9:08 pm


Originally Posted by cestmoi123 (Post 18336457)
Agree with you to a degree, but the fact that planes _can_ be turned into missles means that even people not on the planes have a legitimate interest in airlines having sufficient security to make that scenario at least very difficult.

Automobiles, rental trucks, semis, vans, Amish buggies, covered wagons, the Oscar Meyer Wienermobile, hot air balloons, tractors pulling slurry tanks, gasoline and diesel fuel trucks, general aviation aircraft, traffic helicopters, parade floats, UPS and FedEx planes, blimps that cover sporting events even in the ridiculous case that the events are in domed stadiums, dry bulk haulers, and many other conveyances can be rigged with explosives and used as a portable delivery device. Does that mean that people not in these vehicles and potentially victims of these criminals have an enforceable legitimate interest that the drivers and passengers in said vehicles be checked before driving, riding in or otherwise moving said vehicles by a Federal employee before doing so? If the answer is "no" please supply a logical reason why airplanes are different except that commercial airliners go a long way, carry lots of fuel and travel very fast (all at least partially covered in some of my examples). If "yes," how do you propose that these conveyances be checked and under what authority?

cordelli Apr 4, 2012 9:16 pm


Originally Posted by YCTTSFM (Post 18335813)
Oh, the memories!

But wasn't the 1.4mg 3.5" FD a late improvement in capacity?

IBM introduced it in their laptops (some of them) in 86, some other makers took a bit longer.

RadioGirl Apr 4, 2012 11:49 pm


Originally Posted by mahohmei (Post 18334311)
I had heard stories that, before 9/11, travelers with laptops would be told, by screeners, to take the laptop out of the bag, turn it on, and show a working laptop, simply to prove to the screener that it's a laptop and not a cache of explosives cleverly packed into a gutted laptop chassis.

Did anyone here ever experience that?

I think I only had to boot up once or twice in the 8 years that I travelled with a laptop (int'l from Australia) before 9/11.

My theory is that in the early days, laptops were rare enough that a general rule hadn't been developed; then there was a period when they were more common and got a hand-inspection (including booting); then (well before 9/11) they became SO common that hand-inspection and booting them up would have been too time-consuming. Well before 9/11, it just went through the x-ray machine, although I recall that some (most?) airports required laptops to be out of the bag.


Originally Posted by mahohmei (Post 18334311)
I've always talked about wanting to restore airport security to 9/10, but I'm now thinking more and more that we should revert to absolutely nothing. While the term "security theater" is a post-9/11 term, wasn't pre-9/11 security just as much a show?

I agree with those who have said that WTMD plus x-ray of carry-ons is reasonably effective and minimally invasive, and I would be happy to return to that. (Actually, for domestic travel in Australia, we still have that.)

MikeFly Apr 5, 2012 5:09 am

Laptop being weighed
 
Ah the good old days ... I remember having to turn on the laptop at many airports - even having to plug it in if the battery was dead.

I specifically remember flying out of MUC and they actually weighed my laptop and compared it to a book listing brands and weights. Don't remember the year but guessing it was around the Pan Am 103 time period.

InkUnderNails Apr 5, 2012 5:42 am


Originally Posted by cordelli (Post 18337754)
IBM introduced it in their laptops (some of them) in 86, some other makers took a bit longer.

In 1982 or 1983, I upgraded my HP technical computer, a 9826, with an external 10 Mb hard drive unit that included dual 3.5" FD's. As I remember the unit was about $1000. I also upgraded my ram, adding 4 Mb that came as 4 full size cards, $800 per card, $3200 total, that each took up an expansion slot. They soon released a single card that had the whole 4 Mb on one card for $2000. The HP was Motorola based and did not have a true RAM limit except slots and cash.

There was no commercial software for the computer. My company sent me to HP computer school to learn to write code. They spent about $12000 for four one week classes.

Computers are really cheap and easy now. On the phone with tech support for four hours? Be glad you have someone to call or a tech support to contact.

cestmoi123 Apr 5, 2012 6:17 am


Originally Posted by Pesky Monkey (Post 18337412)
With what we know now, an airliner can't be turned into a missile without the complicity of the pilots, crew, and passengers. it's not a viable threat vector.

Not entirely true. Without any level of security, it is a viable threat vector. Get six people into first class, with handguns, sufficient ammunition, and a crowbar, and then could have a reasonable shot at taking the plane. Hence, the need for some level of security (ie. WTMD and X-ray). I certainly agree that, without the means to breach the cockpit door, it's not a viable threat vector.

cestmoi123 Apr 5, 2012 6:24 am


Originally Posted by InkUnderNails (Post 18337712)
Automobiles, rental trucks, semis, vans, Amish buggies, covered wagons, the Oscar Meyer Wienermobile, hot air balloons, tractors pulling slurry tanks, gasoline and diesel fuel trucks, general aviation aircraft, traffic helicopters, parade floats, UPS and FedEx planes, blimps that cover sporting events even in the ridiculous case that the events are in domed stadiums, dry bulk haulers, and many other conveyances can be rigged with explosives and used as a portable delivery device. Does that mean that people not in these vehicles and potentially victims of these criminals have an enforceable legitimate interest that the drivers and passengers in said vehicles be checked before driving, riding in or otherwise moving said vehicles by a Federal employee before doing so? If the answer is "no" please supply a logical reason why airplanes are different except that commercial airliners go a long way, carry lots of fuel and travel very fast (all at least partially covered in some of my examples). If "yes," how do you propose that these conveyances be checked and under what authority?

You've answered your own question. Only commercial airliners go fast enough, are flexible enough in where they go, and, in the absence of security, can be entered easily enough by the general public to create a viable threat of mass casualties beyond those on board the conveyance to justify the associated security.

Caradoc Apr 5, 2012 6:54 am


Originally Posted by InkUnderNails (Post 18339134)
In 1982 or 1983, I upgraded my HP technical computer, a 9826, with an external 10 Mb hard drive unit that included dual 3.5" FD's. As I remember the unit was about $1000. I also upgraded my ram, adding 4 Mb that came as 4 full size cards, $800 per card, $3200 total, that each took up an expansion slot.

Cool. I never saw a 9826 with more than 2MB of RAM on-board.

Caradoc Apr 5, 2012 6:56 am


Originally Posted by cestmoi123 (Post 18339263)
Get six people into first class, with handguns, sufficient ammunition, and a crowbar, and then could have a reasonable shot at taking the plane.

...and detecting any of those those doesn't require body scanners - in fact, WTMDs are are lot better at detecting metal objects carried on the person than the body scanners, as shown by Seņor Corbett's video antics (to the great dismay of the TSA and anyone with a financial stake in them.)

mahohmei Apr 5, 2012 7:15 am


Originally Posted by Caradoc (Post 18339420)
...and detecting any of those those doesn't require body scanners - in fact, WTMDs are are lot better at detecting metal objects carried on the person than the body scanners, as shown by Seņor Corbett's video antics (to the great dismay of the TSA and anyone with a financial stake in them.)

Something I've noted. I've joked that, if ALPA really wanted to make a point, they could refuse to fly until every passenger goes through a WTMD, since NoSes are obviously useless at keeping guns and crowbars out.


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 2:42 am.


This site is owned, operated, and maintained by MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Designated trademarks are the property of their respective owners.