I had my first encounter with a Spotnik probing passengers in a line before ID check. He asked me flat out if I had checked any luggage.

Do I have to answer his question? I fell for it, and said no, but he continued grilling me about where I was going..

'Out of an abundance of caution, I don't discuss my travel with strangers; it's not safe & I'm sure you can appreciate that'.

Seriously-that is what I have said when one of them tried to pull that stuff with me.

Which airport? Was there a ridiculously long line?

Which airport doesn't have ridiculously long security lines? Neffenger's self induced TSA Malfunction.

If you don't, you may face retaliation. During the current slowdown, that delay could be significant (one airport reported 15 minute waits for bag checks to be completed, during which time the entire checkpoint stopped).

I've been questioned once, a few years ago. I was followed through the terminal and into the restroom, where the questioning continued while I was in the stall attending to business. The BDO who questioned me was flat-out creepy - someone I would have told to leave me alone or I will call 9-11 if it hadn't been a BDO.

I was afraid not to co-operate, because even though I was through the checkpoint and already in the sterile area, they still could have stopped me from flying.

I missed a flight in Tucson, Arizona because of SPOT. I arrived 60 minutes in advance my flight with hand luggage only, and I had already checked in.

A man in <TSA> uniform felt the need to question every passenger with absurd questions and strange grammar. Many people missed their flights. The staff from United were in an uproar because they had to re-accommodate so many people. Passengers were crying in the queue, knowing that they'd miss their flights.

Tucson actually has customs and boarder patrol as well: an immigration officer stops and questions "select" passengers, by which I mean women who look Hispanic/Latina and who are carrying Mexican passports. (There are no international flights from the airport).

So you have to deal with the SPOTnik and, if you're unlucky or have the indecency to be brown-skinned, you get CBP too. (Yes, it's legal, due to proximity to the Mexican border.)

The actual TSA metal detector and x-ray was less than five minutes This featured a a TSA man raising his voice that I didn't have a laptop. He didn't believe me. I guess I had time go buy one and come back.

I'm sure that SPOT saved millions of lives that day. I should probably arrange for a medal of honour for the SPOT officer who helped me and others miss their flights that day. He's a hero.

I still question the constitutional ability for the TSA screening to begin outside of "TSA custody." My understanding is that screening begins when one presents identification and a boarding card. But the SPOT questioning that delayed everyone took pace before entering the TSA's control. Has anyone ever challenged them on this?

(bolding mine)

This made me laugh - and frown.

I am so sick of belt monitors who get rude when they bark at me about taking out my non-existent laptop. I'm sick of effectively being called a liar because I don't have a laptop to take out. I'm sick of bullying TSOs who owe me an apology for calling me a liar.

If you are reading this and you are one of the TSOs who stand by and watch while your co-workers do this and you don't 'see something, say something', then you are equally deserving of my contempt, because by your silence, you are condoning and supporting his/her behavior.

They can, and have, questioned people in the landside areas and even in the parking lots. Authority? You have the right to refuse - and they have the right to retaliate by making you miss your flight or putting you on a watch list or calling the cops on you. If you have Pre, it will get suspended or revoked. That's all the 'authority' needed.

This happened to me a few years ago in Paris. I was yelled at in french ( security did not speak english) and I dont speak french. She wanted also my cell phone out.
Finally she was angry at me for not taking out my non existing laptop and cell phone. That she grapped another passengers laptop and cell phone and pointed at me. I just shook my head. Eventuallt she most have figured out that I did not have them. She was loud and rude.

Moderator's Note:
 

I have serious doubts that BDO questions in line was the sole or even noticable cause to missed flights. I do not doubt they may be asking questions but to it is not reasonable to believe the questions lead to missed flights.

<redacted>

There are a few reports of flights being delayed because it was clear so many missing pax were stuck in security. As I'm sure you've seen posted here and in the news, 6800 pax missed their flights during spring break week because of security delays.

If an entire security lane can be shut down for 15 minutes because there are so many bags that have to be searched before the line can start moving again, why do you find it hard to believe BDO interrogations could cause similar delays at the checkpoint?

gingersnaps,

I understand what you're saying. It shouldn't have taken that long, but it did.

I wish I had snapped a photo.

One agent was questioning every passenger in the queue individually--even individually questioning those traveling in groups and individually questioning children travelling with their families..

There was an American Eagle CRJ-700 (79 seats), an Alaska Airlines 737-800 (163 seats), and a United Express CRJ-700 (64 seats). Let's say that the flights were 80 percent full, so that leaves 245 passengers to question.

All of the passengers were originating in Tucson (no connections offered.)

Now let's say that the questions took between 10 and 30 seconds per passenger. it would take 82 extra minutes to ask all of those questions by one person. And yes, he asked everyone.

Mats clearly referred to standing in line prior to TDC.

If you want me or anyone to believe that BDO questions - prior to TDC - caused "many people" missed their flights OR even that the MATS missed his/her flight because of BDO questions, then you require me to believe that a few things:

* BDO interrogation is mandatory (Please prove it is, if you believe it is)
* BDOs BLOCKED access of the ENTIRE LINE to TDC.
* A passenger COULD ONLY get to TDC after interrogation from BDOs
* Due to blocked of access, there was an empty space between TDC and BDO block point.

*Many large airports have BDOs.
*Many large airports report long wait times.
*NO LARGE airports have placed the blame on BDOs.

It is not reasonable to suggestion that random interactions with BDOs in a line caused "many people" to miss their flights.

<deleted>

I do not question that BDOs were talking to people. I question the assertion that BDOs stopped the line completely for every round of questioning. Thus causing gaps from the BDOs to TDC.

Moderator's Note:
 

Reminder:

We have other active threads to discuss long lines, etc.

Posts have been deleted.

TWA884
Co-moderator

If they get a non english speaking passenger in the lines. Guess what. It will stop the lines . Big times.

I'm sorry, gingersnaps, but there was no access to the travel document check unless you had undergone questioning. All I can do is tell you what happened to me and to others; I don't have any proof other than my own testimony.

I wasn't interested in challenging the BDO program at that point nor asking if I had to answer. I just wanted to get to my plane like everyone else.

My question had to do with if anyone thinks that the SPOTNiks are taking advantage of the long lines to try to weed out (pun intended) passengers carrying recreational materials, deadbeat dads, or illegals? It's a perfect time to do this, especially if you dangle rewards like going to the front of the line if you are cooperative.

FliesWay2Much,

I think that's almost giving them too much credit. In my limited experience, the guy was clueless and taking forever. He wouldn't have been able to catch anything.

But I'm stuck on the idea that behavior detection questions are a form of screening, and this screening is taking place before the TSA has jurisdiction.

I agree with you that the behavior detection officer is far more likely to catch someone with a problem unrelated to aviation safety... if the officer catches anyone at all.

We've known for decades that behavioral techniques don't work.

Have a look at Kraut & Poe's landmark study from 1980:
http://kraut.hciresearch.org/sites/k...nJudgments.pdf

This was a mock customs inspection in which travellers were given fake contraband, and judgments of their behavior were made by customs inspectors versus "laymen." Behavior predicted if a passenger would be searched, not that he or she was carrying contraband:

GAO has shown that TSA's BDO's do no better than than a person guessing. TSA can show no evidence that the BDO program has any validity yet continues squandering the public's money on a useless program.

There should be legal repercussions for government employees using or taking public money when there is no benefit to the public.

I see it the same as contracting with a company to supply widgets and when the box arrives it is empty.

Wouldn't TSA response be "Well there is a sign when you enter the queue that informs you of screening will take place." I know that has been a legal standard for many years when reviewing airport screening, consent, and the 4th Amendment - that standard being was the individual on notice that screening was occurring. So I would agree that BDO questions is a form of screening.


Paul Eckman wrote something recently that "mock" situations do not provide an accurate view of things.

So there is no method to prove or disprove TSA's BDO program? If something can't be proven isn't it just a theory? I don't believe that TSA should be spending taxpayers money on an unproven theory.

1. Ekman declined to release his data for peer review.

2. Charles Honts PhD at the University of Utah attempted to replicate Ekman's findings. It didn't work.

Ekman's research was undisputed until Lisa Feldman Barrett PhD at Northeastern showed Ekman's design. He asked subjects to select from six discrete emotions. When subjects were asked to identify emotions without discrete categories, they were inconsistent.

Ekman argued that he couldn't share his findings because his research could fall into the hands of foreign powers.

We need science. That means robust study design, data, peer review, and replicated results.

No, a theory is something that is provable through evidence and repeatable testing, like evolution or gravity. What you're talking about barely meets the definition of a hypothesis.

No, something that can't be proven or disproven isn't a theory. It's woo. Eckman sounds like Uri Geller talking about James Randi.

And even according to Eckman's own criteria his defense is idiotic. Of course the testers have something riding on the outcome. If there's actually a terrorist threat and behavioral detection is real, they want to make sure it's done right and what's riding on the outcome is the safety of their country. Another benefit to them personally is doing a good job and winning a game. Like poker.

Eckman's a dowser saying that any testing process messes up the conditions needed for dowsing.

FWIW:

1. TSA's BDO training manual specifically says that pax have the constitutional right to not answer questions. It doesn't dwell on that very much, though. And it does say that SPOTting starts in the pre-TDC line itself — it's even called "walk the line".

2. Ekman's the reason why I went into cogsci / cogneuro to begin with. His early work was great. I find it really sad that he's stopped doing real peer-reviewed science since then. Hell, his earlier work explicitly contradicts SPOT; it was very clear that even accurate emotion recognition cannot tell if someone is lying or not, let alone without a baseline for that specific person, because emotional reactions have all sorts of causes.

Would it be safe to say that Behavior Detection as implemented by TSA is just Smoke and Mirrors?

More smoke, and I'm not sure what kind. ;)

So the government paid him to come up with his voodoo science?

With some of the oddball stuff TSA comes with you'd think someone was smoking something.

TSA is still pimping the SPOT program to other entities:

Pimping SPOT

Don't even have to buy it - just collect it at the checkpoint.

Yeah, teaching Amtrak folks to read micro-expressions... ... ...

To keep from getting scared of having my innermost secrets detected by the diligent and wise behavior detection officers, I do what I always do whenever I feel afraid:

I hold my head erect
And whistle a happy tune
So no one will suspect I'm afraid.

Ah ha, Whistling, a suspicious behavior.:eek: behavior.

Don't scoff, I'm sure many a suicide bomber has whistled a happy tune before blowing himself to Crom. :D

Suspicious? I hadn't thought about it like that. Well, I suppose maybe, because I have noticed that

the result of this deception
is very strange to tell
for when I fool the people I fear
I fool myself as well!

"I don't care if you've been whistling at the White House. There will be no whistling at my checkpoint!"

Ekman is correct in many of his statements. Mock situations are completely different than real situations. The stress load generated is completely different, and there is no serious worry about the end game. I wish I c0uold find it, but there were studies being done with folks having similar behavioral training (to TSA BDOs), and observing videos of folks in interviews, videos of interviews as well as discreet surveillance videos, and the results were surprisingly positive. One ran along the lines of 80% identified the individual that was lying, or being misleading. If I find the link I will include it later. It is not a "smoking gun" that many here are wanting, but it did show promise in being able to use scientific methodology to gain a better understanding of how the behavioral observation systems work and can be improved on - or inevitably scrapped as non-viable.

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