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-   Checkpoints and Borders Policy Debate (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate-687/)
-   -   Safe Scanning Technology? (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1236741-safe-scanning-technology.html)

Loren Pechtel Jul 17, 2011 7:07 pm


Originally Posted by Dudey (Post 16745679)
What I also don't understand is if the millimeter wave technology is safer, why wouldn't that be the default option in all airports as opposed to having backscatter?

Image quality.

jtodd Jul 17, 2011 7:37 pm


Originally Posted by Dudey (Post 16745679)
What I also don't understand is if the millimeter wave technology is safer, why wouldn't that be the default option in all airports as opposed to having backscatter?

Along with the other reasons already mentioned here, some TSA reps stated to Rep. Chaffetz when grilled on Capital Hill, that they buy both to keep the prices down. Those TSA reps and their 4th grade science kit have determined both machines are safe, so, they're giving some people cancer to keep the price down. That's the TSA for you.

BubbaLoop Jul 18, 2011 4:09 am


Originally Posted by homeward_bound235 (Post 16723861)
So in my mind there are two objections to the NoS. One is privacy and the other is safety (radiation). We use ultrasonics to see into the human body and consider it safe enough for a fetus. Can this technology be adapted to an airport scan? It would completely eliminate one of the objections to the body scanning, and could in theory find "buried" objects or be used to clear WTMD alarms.

The most central problem of all these techniques is that they are an inappropriate methodology for the task at hand (detecting explosives). They cannot distinguish an underwear bomb from an adult diaper, or a tampon from a hidden pack of prohibited material. They will, inevitably, produce millions of false positive results, and the passengers privacy will be violated to "resolve" these alarms. On the other hand, ETD is safe, non-invasive and actually does detect explosives.

nachtnebel Jul 18, 2011 6:03 am


Originally Posted by BubbaLoop (Post 16747630)
The most central problem of all these techniques is that they are an inappropriate methodology for the task at hand (detecting explosives). They cannot distinguish an underwear bomb from an adult diaper, or a tampon from a hidden pack of prohibited material. They will, inevitably, produce millions of false positive results, and the passengers privacy will be violated to "resolve" these alarms.

^^^^


On the other hand, ETD is safe, non-invasive and actually does detect explosives.
Except that as currently implemented, ETD swabbing produces untold numbers of false alarms on passengers who then must have their crotches rubbed. As far as we know, thousands and thousands have alarmed and been subjected to this treatment with NO incident of anyone being actually found carrying explosives. Even if there was one incident of success, such poor results argue against any reasonability of this test.

BubbaLoop Jul 18, 2011 7:04 am


Originally Posted by nachtnebel (Post 16747984)
Except that as currently implemented, ETD swabbing produces untold numbers of false alarms on passengers who then must have their crotches rubbed. As far as we know, thousands and thousands have alarmed and been subjected to this treatment with NO incident of anyone being actually found carrying explosives. Even if there was one incident of success, such poor results argue against any reasonability of this test.

The currently used ETD equipment/protocol obviously has problems, and these should be addressed. Glycerin and nitroglycerin, for example, are very distinct molecules from a physico-chemical standpoint, and there are straightforward spectroscopic approaches to distinguish them. But the truth is the methodological approach of ETD is correct, and therefore there is a solution to the false positive problem of ETDs.

Whole body imaging, on the other hand, is not "fixable", because it is the incorrect methodological approach.

RadioGirl Jul 18, 2011 7:09 am


Originally Posted by BubbaLoop (Post 16748225)
The currently used ETD equipment/protocol obviously has problems, and these should be addressed.

It sounds like (not surprisingly) TSA is doing it wrong. I get hit with the "random" ETD in Australian airports (CBR almost every time :rolleyes:, SYD domestic occasionally and SYD international once) and have never alarmed. Nor have I ever seen anyone alarm it in Australian airports.

Originally Posted by BubbaLoop (Post 16748225)
Whole body imaging, on the other hand, is not "fixable", because it is the incorrect methodological approach.

+1000

nachtnebel Jul 18, 2011 9:27 am


Originally Posted by BubbaLoop (Post 16748225)
The currently used ETD equipment/protocol obviously has problems, and these should be addressed. Glycerin and nitroglycerin, for example, are very distinct molecules from a physico-chemical standpoint, and there are straightforward spectroscopic approaches to distinguish them. But the truth is the methodological approach of ETD is correct, and therefore there is a solution to the false positive problem of ETDs.

Whole body imaging, on the other hand, is not "fixable", because it is the incorrect methodological approach.

agree. but the burden is on TSA to fix their d*mn implementation BEFORE subjecting people to whatever crotch/b**b massages they do in the private hut. If false positives were rare, well, nobody expects perfection in this life. But AS CURRENTLY implemented, these tests are wrong ALL the time or very close to it.

RatherBeOnATrain Jul 18, 2011 10:50 am


Originally Posted by FlyingUnderTheRadar (Post 16745897)
to get good contact it requires lube.

Now there's a phrase you don't want to see appear in a discussion of TSA's screening...

tinman435 Jul 18, 2011 11:04 am


Originally Posted by BubbaLoop (Post 16748225)
The currently used ETD equipment/protocol obviously has problems, and these should be addressed. Glycerin and nitroglycerin, for example, are very distinct molecules from a physico-chemical standpoint, and there are straightforward spectroscopic approaches to distinguish them. But the truth is the methodological approach of ETD is correct, and therefore there is a solution to the false positive problem of ETDs.

Whole body imaging, on the other hand, is not "fixable", because it is the incorrect methodological approach.

To make matters worse, Nitroglycerin is a ligitamate hart medication that many older people use on a daily basis.


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