Lack of security entering Schengen
 

The last time I visited a Schengen country was in 2009, when I arrived in Geneva in Switzerland for a vacation (one of the most beautiful countries, by the way). I hold a non-EU passport, and the immigration officer asked me a few questions before stamping my passport and waving me through.

I recently visited Italy and landed at their Rome FCO airport. Even as I walked up to the immigration officer, he was engaged in a conversation with the immigration officer next to him, and did not even bother to look up at me, or to even check my identity. He opened the passport up, stamped it randomly, and pushed it back, all this without his eyes ever focusing on me. As far as I'm concerned, with so many countries signing the Schengen Agreement now, wouldn't this be quite a serious breach of security, as one could sneak into dozens of countries through a lax airport such as FCO?

Anyone have any similar stories or thoughts?

FCO is especially lazy. CDG is worse.

Indeed, I've "invaded" France and won several times with nary a blink. In one case the immigration booth wasn't manned and we just walked in. In FRA this past April I was stamped in and out without speaking one word and without the passport being swiped.

That said, I don't see it as much of a security risk as is implied in the OP. With the number of checks that now must happen even before boarding it is rather unlikely that there will be much of an issue.

Please forgive my ignorance, as I am not a frequent traveler to the Schengen zone. But it was my understanding that once you enter the Schengen zone through whatever port, you are free to roam (of course, you are still subject to random checks) through Italy, France, Germany, Switzerland, etc. It would just seem like the lack of scrutiny at FCO could lead to not only illegal immigration or worse, terrorism, in Italy, but also in the other members of Schengen.

blq,vce,pisa, firenzia may or may not be manned(peopled). also, no customs inspection. i once saw customs people appear from woodwork and grab someone with a lot of large suitcases at blq. otherwise i have never seen an agent.

Your understanding is, excepting special circumstances that pop up from time to time, correct in terms of how folks are permitted to move within the region. Still doesn't mean that it is actually a risk. Relatively speaking airports are much stronger borders - in large part due to the number of other checks that happen during the air travel process, from flight manifest checking to airline agents involved in the process - than land or sea borders. From a simple "path of least resistance" concept it is somewhat silly to think that a terrorist group is out there somewhere planning on stationing their operatives in the Schengen zone by hoping the immigration officers are not paying attention that day.

I am glad that some immigration officers still use common sense and know that 99.99999% of travellers pose no risk and should be welcomed with open arms. You probably have a passport from a relatively rich country whose citizens are not often engaging in terrorist or other illegal activities abroad.

Please follow the discussion as the thread moves to the Travel Safety/Security forum. Ocn Vw 1K, Moderator, TravelBuzz.

I've only been to France once, via Eurostar, and the French immigration officer at St. Pancras in London was talking on his phone and just stamping passports as people went through without even looking. I guess he figured that if you're good enough to enter the UK (since they usually do quiz you about your travels when arriving) then you're good enough to enter France.

My experience at Berlin-Tegel arriving from LHR was also very similar. A quick "guten tag" and a "danke" (which, along with scheiss, is the extent of my German ;)) and 10 seconds later I was through passport control.

To worry about illegal immigration by way of entry into the Schengen Zone at FCO or CDG makes little sense when most illegal immigration into and/or within the Schengen zone is done via surface transport. To worry too much about this being an always open door for terrorists entering into the Schengen Zone at FCO or CDG or any other major European airport requires suspension of disbelief, as fraudulently-acquired/used real identification is well within the grasp of any such competent persons and as those with a few thousand dollars can and do quite readily use surface transport means through illicit channels (and often do so without ID quite) regularly.

And contrary to popular misconceptions, an undocumented alien in the Schengen Zone doesn't ordinarily have an easy time of settling everywhere else in the Schengen Zone.

I think we had the same German teacher.

I found it to be the opposite. In FCO the IO didn't even look at me or my passport. I was waived right through. No one searched my luggage or hassled me at customs. CDG was more ridged, they actually looked through my passport and asked me what I was doing there. Still, no where near as bad as the UK or US, but at least they looked at my ID.

I think you worry too much. Way too much.

It might be an immigration issue, but it has nothing at all to do with security.

Virtually all of my Schengen entries have been conversation-free. A quick scan, a quick stamp, and I'm off. Even when I had police inspecting passports at the plane door of a Schengen arrival in Vienna, there was no real scrutiny at passport control.

That's my one exception, because Tegel was one of the rare spots where I was asked a handful of questions. Actually, on the whole, entering Schengen at German airports (TXL, MUC) has been more involved than any other entry point. (some questions upon exit too)

Again, one's MMV. I had some family members enter through CDG and not only did they only get a cursory glance at their passports and no questions, their passports were not even stamped, leaving them with no (immediate) proof of their legal entry should they be stopped (and they nearly were, at a random side-of-the-road checkpoint in the French countryside).

Nothing new here. With close to 30 trips to Europe from the mid-90s to 2004, I had a grand total of 5 entry stamps during that period. Except for the UK - I was primarily entering via FRA or AMS - I rarely got more than a nod or a little hand gesture to proceed when I held up my US passport. It got to the point that I didn't even slow down my walking when coming up to the immigration booth; I would just hold up my passport, make eye contact with the immigration officer and head on through.

It also depends on the country of your passport. Passports from "first world" countries don't get hassled. Also, remember, that local police in many places in Europe have the authority to stop and ask you for your papers. If not everything is in order you might have problems.

While I agree there is little risk from a security perspective, the lax approach to entering the Schengen Area in some countries such as Italy have caused countries such as Denmark to be a bit more protective of their borders. Here is a BBC article, one of many on the subject.

It would still be prudent to check that the person standing there is the person for whom the passport was issued.

Denmark's border controls have little or nothing to do with "lax approach to entering the Schengen area" at normal airport immigration checkpoints, and everything with fear of brown people who are illegally entering Schengen via sea or land.

Normally this has already been done at least once, and in many cases several times, by airline staff, airport officials and/or immigration officers in the country of departure.

I'm an immigration officer. We find fraudulent documents all the time. Sometimes airport officials are even involved in facilitating those frauds.

I wasn't really worrying; I was merely interested with what I saw, and this is not something I am used to. I travel most frequently to the United States, and I can guarantee you that the exact opposite happens. I am questioned, fingerprinted, the officer flips through my passport, and checks my visa before I am admitted*.

*= I am not complaining about the procedures, which is normal. Most of the officers I have met are respectful and the entire ordeal takes less than five minutes.

I was using a Hong Kong passport; not sure what standing it has with European officers, but hopefully a good one. Unfortunately, it is not good enough for the US yet and the HK passport is not included in the VWP.

A US passport isn't good enough for the US any more (see the thread about asking for extra ID)

:eek:

CDG stamped my recently expired/cancelled passport last month without even looking at the front page (cancelled passport was attached behind the current passport). The guy was on his phone, so he just flicked open a random page and stamped without looking.

In the past, I've actually had to go hunting for immigration officers at CDG after jumpseating in on a Daallo Airlines flight from London to Djibouti (that made a stop to pick up passengers in Paris) when they didn't expect any arriving passengers. The doors to France were literally left open to stroll through!

Try finding an immigration officer when arriving by ferry from the UK. Most of the time, the doors to France are wide open. ^

Really, this is the way it ought to be. Terrorism is not a threat - really, it's not. You are far more likely to die in a traffic accident. Airport security should be kept to an absolute minimum, customs between friendly countries should be only a formality.

As other posters have pointed out, most illegal immigrants attempt to sneak in via surface transport - at the moment, thousands of people are coming by sea from Tunisia, Egypt and Libya.

Terrorism is not an immigration officer's primary concern—compliance with immigration legislation is.

Switzerland is not a Schengen country. That said, I agree that migration process in airports are heavily supported by airline check in procedures, so anyone coming in a plane, had to have a minimum of “legal” documents as to get to that point. Migration officers in airports are aware of that and are more relaxed.

Now, Schengen by itself is full of loopholes. You can take a plane from London to Gibraltar, land and walk into Spain looking like a tourist who is coming back from a day in the rock, and chances are you will not be asked for any type of document. But hell, you can also take a boat from Africa and land in Italy (or Greece) and you are in…

It’s like crossing the river from Mexico to the US… There is always a way to come in, and believe me most of the time its nor through airports, since you need documents at the point of origin to board.


Every country will be more careful with different “possible” immigrants. For example, now in Spain, if you hold a Latin American passport, they will reinforce the rule that you need a return ticket, proof of economic solvency, a hotel reservation, and if they are not satisfied, they could deny your entry, but its because there is always a percentage of “tourists” that turn into illegal immigrants, and if they speak Spanish and come from a less developed country, they are more likely to be…

Entering Spain with a US passport, is a piece of cake, no need to show anything, if an American wanted to become an illegal immigrant, it would be more likely to attempt the UK, and not Spain, so they are more relaxed…

It’s a matter of what they are after. If they are after illegal immigration of if they are after terrorism, ad not all countries feel the heat of terrorism, so they are more concerned with illegal immigration.

Now, if you are a Latin American with the intention of staying in Spain, the best way around it is flying to Madrid via Paris. That way you will face French immigration agents that as soon as they see you are leaving France (ticket to Madrid) they stamp and let you through, Its not their problem, it’s the Spaniards problem… Of course, if you come from a French speaking African country, you will better have a return ticket, money and credit cards, a hotel reservation and look clean and affluent…

It has been since December 2008.

Schiphol Amsterdam Airport has Spanish immigration officers stationed there who work mostly at the times that the KLM flights from Quito, Guayaquil, Lima, Panama and Mexico arrive at AMS.

Not all of the time. They are missed quite regularly too.

Yes, and sometimes those in the role of immigration control clerks are involved in facilitating those frauds too.

And Spain uses APIS data in order to meet some such passengers about whom it may have concerns even when they fly via CDG into Spain.

I didn't state otherwise.

Immigration officers are certainly airport officials in this context.

For years I used to enter Switzerland at GVA and the immigration officer just looked at my (closed) passport as I held it out and waved me past. Now I enter at ZRH and they typically just stamp it without any questions or scrutiny.

From Geneva I frequently take a bus or car to France and back. Most vehicles are waved through although there's (very) intermittent checks of passports and the penalties (I understand) are substantial.

It works. And it's worked for decades. The US is just too paranoid about the 0.0000000001% chance of something going wrong.

Perhaps this is unrelated to FCO or the scrutiny by immigration officers at airports, but isn't it the lax attitude of Schengen that has caused problems within Europe? There can be no denying that illegal immigration is a major problem, although as many members have pointed out, such illegals usually travel from country to country via boats or surface travel.

But there have been many examples, from the past and from recent times: the UK maintaining strict border controls; Germany declaring that multiculturalism has 'failed' (this coming from the influx of immigrants due to EU agreements); Denmark setting up border checks again to keep out illegals and criminals from Eastern Europe; and countries like France that want to restart temporary border controls because it can't handle the large number of African illegals entering through Italy, I believe.

I do not enjoy getting questioned by US officials, and being a FTer I've read all about the horror stories of land-crossings across the US - Canada border. But isn't it necessary to have somewhat strict(er) border security? HK has a much laxer stance regarding Mainland immigrants or visitors in recent years, and living here, you see it and feel it.

Actually, November 1st, 2008. I remember this because I was looking forward to having a Swiss stamp in my passport, but I arrived just a few days after it all took effect, so no luck.

However, I seem to recall that, at least at the beginning, Switzerland was "Schengen" for immigration purposes, but not customs. On arrival, we were supposed to fill out customs declarations, if necessary, and drop them in a box.

...for more immigration pleasure.

Schengen doesn't deal with customs, so Switzerland has a common immigration and visa regime with the other Schengen countries, and also Switzerland will remain a non-EU country for the foreseeable future so it is and will remain outside the EU common customs area.

I'll take your above response to my post as a clarification that your words "all the time" equate with "frequently" or something of the sort.

"We find fraudulent documents all the time." Passport checking control clerks don't find them all the time, just rather frequently.


Not necessarily. As some of the fraud that occurs involves even border control agency employees who may not be staffed at an airport.

The problems within Europe would exist with or without the Schengen arrangement. There were problems long before full implementation of Schengen and the problems of today are all of the same nature as before implementation of Schengen.

Your second paragraph above really misses the boat for the most part, particularly about Germany and Denmark.