How US passport exit controls will work
 

Flying YYC->ORD->AMS today.

CBP officer asked me what my destination was (reasonable question since my residence in the USA is not near ORD).

I told him AMS.

He then asked me the purpose of my trip to AMS.

He was starting to roll with his interrogation, then he noticed someone in line using a cell phone and left his post to deal with that.

Came back, and stamped my passport, perhaps because he forgot that he thought I was a drug runner.

When the USA has passport exit controls, expect this sort of interrogation of residents and citizens of the USA.

This is one case where I enjoy the fact that most of my international travel is on official orders, which clearly state that I am not allowed to discuss the business of said travel. Any government official that asks me what I am doing (had a CBP officer ask me in the jetway on one of my flights to NRT last year) gets the orders page shown to them. If they continue, I advise them to contact my security office, as I am not allowed to discuss the issue further.

There will be no exit controls - you are under no obligation to tell the inspector where you are going and why. You can say you're going home or say you're staying in Chicago for awhile - or you can just refuse to answer. As long as you're a US citizen, you must be admitted, the only question is how much you want to escalate the interaction with the inspector.

just tell them you are going to a sex toy convention and would they like you to pick up a 'gift' for them...

When approached by a US government official and asked any questions, I follow a simple rule - minimal truthful information, if any response is required, starting with not saying anything at all as the most preferred path. My home airport, in particular, is one where I have witnessed by TSA and CBP personnel attempt to intimidate passengers with threats of 18 USC 1001.

What the heck does this have to do with exit controls? It appears that you were being questioned in order to enter the United States, not to leave.

US airports are not set up to handle exit immigration because domestic and international departures occur in the same secure areas of the airport and those areas are not sterile, meaning that any departing passenger can walk out of the departures area and remain in the USA. In the USA, only international ARRIVALS areas are sterile. There are no in-transit areas currently operating for commercial air travel.

As a result, the vast majority of travelers have no passport exit controls when departing the USA.

The only exceptions are for those subject to the NSEERS procedures, who must report to a CBP officer for an exit interview before being permitted to leave the country.

We already have exit controls, in the form of our government requiring airlines to send a list of passengers on any international flight to be cleared in advance of the plane leaving. It's too bad, as it's none of the government's doggone business where its citizens travel to.

I saw something odd at ORD a few years back. I was at the gate waiting to board a flight to London. At the next gate was a flight to Delhi. Suddenly a herd of men in identical jackets with the flip down back panels revealing them to be CBP swarmed the area. Some carried bullhorns, others had passport scanners. They started shouting that all passengers leaving the US had to "check out." In English, only. The announcement was also made at the desk of the flight to Delhi. White, American types were ignored and the few that tried to show US passports to the agents were waved off. They only seemed interested in the Indians. As quick as they came in, all the men suddenly disappeared through a side door. The guys weren't there long enough to scan every Indian's passport.
ORD isn't my usual jumping off airport for international flights so I don't know how often this occurs. Last time I was there nothing strange happened.

I'm not a U.S. citizen. And even if I were, as I have Global Entry, lying (telling the officer I am going home when my pocket has a BP for ORD->AMS ... really a bad idea) and/or dissembling to the CBP is not in the cards.

I was being questioned about why I was leaving the US the same day I was entering it. "Leaving" == "Exiting". Questions about why I am "exiting" == "exit controls".

Well there are U.S. airports that have separate concourses for international and domestic departures. Setting up exit controls is not big deal, and I can easily imagine how it work at airports that are already set up with entry controls for CBP.

The point of my post is when CBP does this across the board, what sort of questions one might expect.

For what it is worth, the country of my citizenship (the Netherlands) and the area of my passport control zone (Schengen) have had entry and exit controls for as long as I remember. I must have entered and left more than 500 times in my life, and I have never been asked a single question on any of my entries and exits. I just can't understand why US citizens are asked any questions at all at the US borders.

I'm looking forward to visiting your country tomorrow.

Why should we be? It's nobody's business where we're going. Let the country we're traveling TO ask the questions.

Well, for the record, I've entered and exited the EU/Schengen zone through various countries numerous times, and never, not once, has the passport control officer asked me a single question. In fact, he or she usually says nothing at all, just glances at the photo page and then stamps me in. A couple of times last year the guy didn't even swipe my passport in his computer, just stamped and tossed it back at me without even making eye contact.

The EU seems to be much more relaxed about this stuff.

I also love how they have "Green" and "Red" customs lanes, and the Green (nothing to declare) lanes usually aren't even staffed, so it's just on the honor system, and you can just walk out the door if you have nothing to declare without being given the once-over by a customs officer.

I'll bet you have been given the once-over each time, via camera.

Actually, it's not an issue of which terminal is for domestic vs. international. The issue is that in the USA, most travelers don't have their passport checked or stamped in person by government officials when departing the country as a matter of course. (Govt clearance to leave the country is obtained indirectly by the airlines in most cases.) As such, travelers don't legally "depart" the country until their plane is out of US airspace. By contrast, in most other countries (Europe, Asia, etc), when departing on an international flight, one clears exit immigration and is then in a no-man's land in the gate/lounge area, having legally been stamped out of the country. At this point, the traveler has no way of leaving the sterile departures area except by boarding the international flight. In other words, he cannot just walk out the exit door because he has already crossed the border and is no longer in the country. This is where U.S. airports would have a problem, because secure departures areas DO have exit doors where you can just walk out and be on US soil. It would take major reconfigurations of large international airports, and substantial staffing changes, to transform international departure areas into sterile areas, IMHO.


Now, I can see how the USA could reintroduce ITI lounges at select airports (like DFW and maybe ORD) that are set up for that by using the sterile arrivals corridors to escort ITI passengers back down to waiting aircraft AFTER all locally departing passengers were on board and the doors to the terminal concourse were sealed. The issue would be making sure that none of the ITI pax slipped out of the transit area into the concourse because, from there, they could simply walk out of the secure area into the USA without undergoing arrival FIS procedures.

That is simply not correct; you were being questioned about your travel plans which happened to be a trip through ORD to AMS. It is standard CBP examination: ask questions and see how people react and if the answers make sense. Had you been traveling YYC-ORD-MIA, he might have asked you what you plan on doing in MIA. Would you then consider that a prediction of internal immigration control? The fact that he was questioning you about why you were going to AMS is totally unrelated to "exit controls" and your linking the two is puzzling considering you were entering the country.

Correct. (I was actually stopped once by FRA in the green line-- took 30 seconds once he found out I was transfering).

There are already some kind of US passport exit controls: DHS questioning of people in/near a jet bridge/gate area for a flight departing internationally (which is, more often than not, a fishing expedition for money or other financial instruments); government requiring US citizens to depart the US on a US passport; government requiring US common carriers to supply DHS with a list of departing passengers' passport details and other PNR-type info.

If/when US passport exit controls get formalized in the manner that is quite common in civil law countries -- like most of the EU -- expect the situation of dealing with DHS to be closer to the relative nastiness that exists in the dealings between bureaucrats of some less developed nations and their own "subjects" at departure passport control desks.

The above strikes me as reading like work of fiction. There is no "no-man's land in the gate/lounge area"; and the post-"exit" passport control "sterile departures area" can be left in almost all countries in Europe and Asia without boarding the international flight.

In every single EU Schengen country, it's well possible to leave the "sterile departures area" by means other than boarding the international flight -- I do it a few times a month on a US passport, and I'm including even those former-Communist countries that are now EU Schengen countries.

Of course, you can always go back through entrance immigration control, but besides that and boarding the international flight what other options does a traveller have?

But if you wanted to leave, wouldn't you have to go back through passport control and legally re-enter the country? My point is that once you're stamped out, you can't just walk back in. You would have to be cleared back through entry immigration all over again if you wanted to go out landside. Right?


I'm thinking not only of Europe, but also South America, places like EZE, SCL, CCS. Once you pass through exit immigration, there's "no turning back." I suppose you could go back landside if you wish, but it would be a huge hassle to get an airline agent to escort you, etc.

It's not like in the States, where you can go in and out of the secure area as much as you want as long as you're holding your valid boarding pass and ID, even if you're departing internationally. No passport check or stamping out (for most travelers).

You don't even have to always go back through "entrance immigration control". Going back through "exit immigration control" works just fine to get back landside and/or into the "domestic" immigration/customs zone that was just "left", and it even works without taking the international flight or going through "entrance immigration control" (since that doesn't even exist at all times/places/hours in countries that have in place "entry" and "exit" passport control, a la the EU Schengen countries/Argentina/Chile/Malaysia/etc.)

The US does a passport check of all travelers using a common carrier to enter and/or depart the US. That there is no stamp in most passengers' passport and that there is no government official physically handling the physical passport doesn't change a thing.

The odds of getting out of the US on an invalidated/restricted/flagged US passport on a common carrier's flight out of the US is pretty poor compared to doing the same on an invalidated/restricted/flagged EU Schengen country's passport departing France or the Netherlands for non-EU localities.

Agreed to an extent - but what about the fact that those requiring an I-94 or I-94W (in the 'old' days ;))? They would have presumably surrendered these at check-in prior to clearing into the sterile area... Is this not a form of departure control?

Nope, the I-94 forms are surrendered to the airline agent at the moment of boarding (as your boarding pass is scanned and you enter the jetbridge). From that moment on, you are "undocumented" and need to continue down the jetbridge to the plane that will take you out of the country.

Of course, some airlines collect them at check-in counters (or prior to boarding begins, at the gate) for the sake of convenience, but that could pose a problem because then the foreigner could simply walk away, out of the airport, and be in the USA undocumented.

Make sure to bring back something interesting. I suggest brownies. Make sure you declare them on your customs form. Buy very expensive brownies. :)

It is indeed a form of exit control, and no less so given that DHS is supplied with actual passenger manifests from the airlines and also has the listing of passport details collected and filed for the departing passengers on the passenger manifest of the internationally-departed flight.

When it comes to flights on common carriers, US exit controls of a sort are in place, and part of those controls include DHS employees interrogating departing US citizens as part of fishing expeditions when and where DHS deems it appropriate; other part of those controls are as I mentioned above.

This was true until ESTA. With ESTA you get no I94s anymore, so nothing to surrender when you leave the country. I wonder what happened to all the guys in Kentucky where these I94s ended up being processed?

It is also true of non-common carriers. Private international flights (US-Canada) must report to Customs via internet the passenger list and pp # and may not depart until/unless they receive written permission from the US DHS/TSA via email.

And according to Nappy, coming soon to a marina near you...
And don't forget the Port Huron incident where a departing Canadian was detained and arrested after US CBP decided to question him on his way out of the country by car.

Now, where do we grow the bananas?

In my experience, apart from the three times that it has been forgotten, I have had the I94 removed at check-in across a variety of airlines over about 10 years of regular travel to the US.

With the introduction of the electronic I94 (on some flights now), the process is even less controlled.

In the UK often the customs area is not staffed at all. It's my understanding, though, that they pay attention to passenger manifests and such as well as probably CCTV as you state, and that if they suspect anything they're there in force. They're not really interested in people who have one bottle of beer too many, for instance - that's not worth the money.

Neil

Which is entirely my point...

On my latest departure from the USA, all 1-94s and I-94Ws were collected by British Airways at BWI at check-in. So from this point until departure I did not have one, yet as others have pointed out I could have theoretically re-entered the country at any point up until boarding, pretty much.

The only time I have not had it removed until the gate was when my first segment was US Domestic (ie. DCA-PHL-MAN). No-one cared about I-94s at any point at DCA - they were removed at PHL before boarding the TATL sector.

catandmouse - bear in mind that the I-94 (white, for visa holders) - is still being used.

Actually, what I posted remained true even after ESTA became a standard requirement for US VWP entries.

It is only within more recent weeks that USVWP passengers have been told filling out the I-94s is no longer a general requirement, and even then the exit controls of the sort I mentioned are still in play.

For years now, the passport details of passengers departing the US on flights has been used by DHS as part of US exit passport control. That remains the case, ESTA-user, US citizen or otherwise.

I fully support exit controls at all US airports and land borders.

Just imagine the hundreds of thousands of new jobs this will create.
There will be a need for at least 10,000 new CBP officers. Airports
and land crossing checkpoints will need to construct exit controls,
which means thousands of new construction jobs. The DHS will
need to spend probably 50 to 75 million dollars for TV commercials
and print ads to educate the public.

:p

All new land border ports that are being constructed are being built with the ability to direct traffic to outbound booths for the purpose of outbound operations and exit control. Exit control has been mandated by Congress in the Immigration and Nationality Act since 1997. However, it has never been sufficiently funded by Congress.

FB

Wow! Really? Do you think it is possible that all major international airports eventually might be reconfigured to keep international departures areas sterile, like in the EU and South America and Asia?

That would require a huge investment on the part of the government, I suspect.

With the green I-94W's no longer in use, how does CBP know when visitors have left? Is it all going off what the airlines submit to DHS upon departure?

They didn't hand out any I-94Ws on CX830 yesterday. I had thought that the ESTA only was still being tested at LAX. There were still the green forms lying around at CBP in JFK T7, but they didn't ask why I didn't have one.

CX run a US entry/exit procedures video prior to landing. The video mentioned that you would be required to use a USVISIT exit kiosk prior to departing. I thought that those kiosks didn’t work and they pulled them all out years ago after the trial period finished.

Would it not also require some common sense? Which the US government is sorely lacking.

For all my intl trips, I fly on AA out of JFK, I scan my passport in the self-check-in terminal and I get my bp. I put my passport away in my luggage and use my dl to go through security. NO ONE looks at my pp until I arrive at my foreign destination--AA does not do pp checks at the gate. Now that I can print my bp at home, I am curious how this plays out: they have my pp number on file (I gave it to them:)), but if the above scenario plays out NOW, I would still be allowed to fly even if I left my pp home.:confused:
On several trips out of LHR, no govt agent looked at my pp, only AA agents at the gate. [One or two times there was a "govt official" looking at pp's.]

Yes, asking these questions of a citizen and/or legal resident of the US is internal immigration / exit control depending on the ultimate destination?

What if my plane ticket took me to my legal residence in the USA, and the CBP officer asked me if I planned to travel the next day (internally or internationally)? Next week? Next month, next year, next decade, etc? At what point do you consider those questions Soviet-esque? What if the GE or Nexus kiosk asked the same questions?


:D

I'll be using GE, so no consumables coming back on this trip.

I don't think so. Many international airports have international terminals. So put an exit control at the entrances. Solved.

For those international airports without international terminals, most of those have international arrivals halls connected to one terminal. So rope off part of that terminal to use for exit controls. Solved. The investment is pretty much in doubling the CBP airport workforce.

Not likely in our lifetimes: it's not even that way in all of the EU, South America and Asia; and DHS remains paranoid about the idea of airside transits without an opportunity to "process" all for border "security" purposes, including specifically immigration control.

To further ramp up exit controls (beyond that which the US already has), doesn't necessarily require investment as much as it would involve expanding the government workfare workfarce known as DHS/CBP and just flushing down more money that way.

Wow, you have no real understanding of CBP nor US airports. The vast majority of US airports with international flights do not have a physically separate international terminal. Many have a few flights a day to Canada or Mexico or somewhere in the Caribbean. Even airports that do have "international" terminals - like SFO - also have domestic flights flying out of that terminal. Some airports with "international" terminals - like ATL and LAX- also have international flights leaving out of the regular terminals.

So, no, it's not as easy as just putting up some CBP booths on the other side of TSA to process foreigners heading out of the US. Since there is currently no constitutional requirement for US citizens to have permission to leave the country, there will never be exit controls on US citizens. So, there's zero chance that a system of international-only airport terminals will be built just to process foreign visitors on their exiting flights.

:rolleyes:

Addressed in my post.


So what? The frequency makes no difference; CBP has to staff the inbounds of all flights from Mexico and those flights from Canada with no U.S. pre-clearance.

The international (including Canada and Mexico) outbound flights can be moved to the international terminal, and the domestic flights out of the international terminal.

As for Constitutionality of exit controls, FB notes that by law, exit controls are supposed to be in place, and on land crossings, they do exist from time to time.