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-   -   Call to arms. (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/checkpoints-borders-policy-debate/1032474-call-arms.html)

Olton Hall Dec 28, 2009 8:29 pm


Originally Posted by senseker (Post 13070870)
We have one wbi at sfo here, and I work with it every day at the checkpoint. Honestly, the images we see aren't that great, but good enough to determine if you have a wallet in your pocket or a knife strapped to your chest (and that's happened with me before). It's great technology, and it does work. There are signs next to it to explain what it does, and we have people explaining what it does as well. As a passenger, it is your right to not go through it. Anyone who opts out of the wbi instead gets a patdown. Nobody can force you to go through the wbi. It uses zero x-rays, so it's not going to expose you to anything. If I remember correctly, the machine that uses x-rays is the backscatter, a machine we don't use.

There are reports from overseas in the past few weeks that prolong exposure standing near these sort of machines may lead to a significant risk of thyroid cancer. The studies were primarily about MRI technicians but they also speculated that security employees may be in more danger of this cancer because they aren't protected at all like the MRI techs. How do you feel about working next to these machines knowing they may give you cancer 10 years down the road?

Brewfangrb Dec 28, 2009 8:35 pm


Originally Posted by senseker (Post 13070969)
If you want your items in your view, you only have to ask. We're not going to tell you no :)

Also, when we ask, it's more curiosity for me. But TSA wants to know why people are opting out of it.

And how did your laptop get damaged? Damged how?

That's baloney and you know it. If you ask to have your items in your view, "you're not going to tell me no". BS. Explain the multitudes of reports on here that clearly contradict that.

You "ask" about why people opt out of the WBI to serve your purposes of retribution and intimidation. If the TSA REALLY, REALLY was legitimately interested in what the public had to say, they'd eliminate the WBI, the shoe circus, the kippie bags and the fluid limits.

Look, the easy answer is this: We already go through the magnetometer. Why not walk through an ETP and be done with it? (And please don't insult my intelligence by claiming "technological concerns").

Boggie Dog Dec 28, 2009 8:36 pm


Originally Posted by senseker (Post 13070870)
We have one wbi at sfo here, and I work with it every day at the checkpoint. Honestly, the images we see aren't that great, but good enough to determine if you have a wallet in your pocket or a knife strapped to your chest (and that's happened with me before). It's great technology, and it does work. There are signs next to it to explain what it does, and we have people explaining what it does as well. As a passenger, it is your right to not go through it. Anyone who opts out of the wbi instead gets a patdown. Nobody can force you to go through the wbi. It uses zero x-rays, so it's not going to expose you to anything. If I remember correctly, the machine that uses x-rays is the backscatter, a machine we don't use.


That is not what the head of DHS said. She clearly said that refusal only resulted in a trip thru the WTMD.

So how come you folks at SFO are doing patdowns?

senseker Dec 28, 2009 8:57 pm

I don't know. That's what we do. Not because we want to intimidate you, but because that's the rules. I have no control over it. And trust me, none of us particularly care for the device.

And thyroid problems? Never heard of if from the wbi, but whatever. I mean, I work with an x-ray machine every day, what's the difference with a bit more :rolleyes:

Brewfangrb Dec 28, 2009 9:28 pm


Originally Posted by senseker (Post 13071163)
[color=red] I don't know. That's what we do. Not because we want to intimidate you, but because that's the rules. I have no control over it. And trust me, none of us particularly care for the device.

Are you doing anything about it? Providing feedback up the chain of command with your concerns about how the WBI affects the quality of the security process, how it affects the public's view of the security process, etc? If not, then I don't believe "Your safety is our top priority". I believe "I do what I am told, no matter what, so I can pay the rent."

Unfortunately, you may be sincere and not want to intimidate us, but as I am sure you know, perception is reality. The perception is that everything about TSA is to intimidate the flying public and make them cower to all the rules, no matter how inane they may be.

And lastly, do you not understand how absolutely maddening the "that's the rules. I have NO control over it" line is? You have ABSOLUTE control over it! If you were sincere in your beliefs, you would either a) work with the chain of command to improve the process and failing that b) quit.

senseker Dec 28, 2009 9:38 pm


Originally Posted by Brewfangrb (Post 13071297)
Are you doing anything about it? Providing feedback up the chain of command with your concerns about how the WBI affects the quality of the security process, how it affects the public's view of the security process, etc? If not, then I don't believe "Your safety is our top priority". I believe "I do what I am told, no matter what, so I can pay the rent."

Unfortunately, you may be sincere and not want to intimidate us, but as I am sure you know, perception is reality. The perception is that everything about TSA is to intimidate the flying public and make them cower to all the rules, no matter how inane they may be.

And lastly, do you not understand how absolutely maddening the "that's the rules. I have NO control over it" line is? You have ABSOLUTE control over it! If you were sincere in your beliefs, you would either a) work with the chain of command to improve the process and failing that b) quit.

Yea, we've voiced our concerns, and I have too. By now, the TSA upper management know we don't care for the machines, but we also have to do what we're told. At sfo, we work for covenant aviation security, a contractor for TSA. And if our company wants to keep the contract, they're going to do what the TSA upper management tells them to do. Going against management just sounds like a horrible plan. I sure would like to keep my job. I'm not a superhero going around saving passengers from the evil of security.

As me and my friend do, we cross our arms, say "BWAHAHAHA, EVIL TSA" and laugh it off. It's just better to be in a good mood then pissed at the world :)

GUWonder Dec 28, 2009 9:56 pm


Originally Posted by senseker (Post 13070870)
We have one wbi at sfo here, and I work with it every day at the checkpoint. Honestly, the images we see aren't that great, but good enough to determine if you have a wallet in your pocket or a knife strapped to your chest (and that's happened with me before). It's great technology, and it does work. There are signs next to it to explain what it does, and we have people explaining what it does as well. As a passenger, it is your right to not go through it. Anyone who opts out of the wbi instead gets a patdown. Nobody can force you to go through the wbi. It uses zero x-rays, so it's not going to expose you to anything. If I remember correctly, the machine that uses x-rays is the backscatter, a machine we don't use.

MMW or backscatter x-ray, neither detects explosives.

T-ray devices are no better at detecting explosives.

senseker Dec 28, 2009 10:03 pm

The wbi and the x-ray machines don't detect explosives. It's all a human effort. Other than the etp, we don't have much else. It would be real nice.

n4zhg Dec 29, 2009 3:48 am


Originally Posted by DevilDog438 (Post 13070965)
Plus, dear DHS leader assured the dorks on the Hill that no one is patted down for refusing the WBI.

(underlining mine)

Politician. Liar. Lips moving. Check.

BubbaLoop Dec 29, 2009 3:57 am


Originally Posted by senseker (Post 13070870)
We have one wbi at sfo here, and I work with it every day at the checkpoint. Honestly, the images we see aren't that great, but good enough to determine if you have a wallet in your pocket or a knife strapped to your chest (and that's happened with me before). It's great technology, and it does work. There are signs next to it to explain what it does, and we have people explaining what it does as well. As a passenger, it is your right to not go through it. Anyone who opts out of the wbi instead gets a patdown. Nobody can force you to go through the wbi. It uses zero x-rays, so it's not going to expose you to anything. If I remember correctly, the machine that uses x-rays is the backscatter, a machine we don't use.

Could you please tell us in which terminal and what lanes lead to it? Is it used for primary or secondary screening?

And just to add to the chorus: WBI does not work. You should detect explosives, not images. Images can be anything, including perfectly innocent but very personal things you have no need to know about.

TSORon Dec 29, 2009 4:42 am


Originally Posted by doober (Post 13068064)
It's there but I'm not doing your work for you.

IOW you cant find it either. Why not just admit it?


Originally Posted by N965VJ (Post 13070086)
What threat to commercial aviation, besides someone cleaning out the F snack basket, does marijuana have?

It was an anology, but I'm sure that does not matter, right?


Originally Posted by GUWonder (Post 13070134)
Are you looking forward to personally handling used tampons, panty liners, colostomy bags or the like, or are you just in this for the the in-person- and/or video-monitoring of removals of those items? That is what will come with increased use of strip search machines.

I get to handel all that already, so there is not going to be a difference in my duties on their account.


Originally Posted by BubbaLoop (Post 13072273)
Could you please tell us in which terminal and what lanes lead to it? Is it used for primary or secondary screening?

And just to add to the chorus: WBI does not work. You should detect explosives, not images. Images can be anything, including perfectly innocent but very personal things you have no need to know about.

Oh get over it. Nothing detects explosives. All the technology does is detect elements that are commonly used in explosives, not the explosives themselves. ETD, ETP, WBI, MMW, none of it works without human assistance and intervention.

ETP and ETD only say that yes these elements are present. The actual detection of the explosives is done by the screeners.

WBI and MMW only give a picture of hidden items. Its screeners who decide if those items are hazardous or prohibited.

They all do exactly what they are designed to do, and they do it well. It’s the screeners who actually do the work of determining what is questionable, prohibited, or hazardous.

Calls for Full-Body Screening Devices Grow After Terror Attempt

"Dec. 29 (Bloomberg) -- A suspected terrorist’s attempt to blow up a U.S. airliner may override privacy concerns and intensify a push for full-body scanning equipment at airports.

U.S. officials charged a 23-year-old Nigerian man with trying to blow up Northwest Flight 253 as it prepared to land in Detroit on Christmas Day. President Barack Obama said yesterday he ordered a thorough review of the episode and called for new scrutiny of screening policies and technologies.

Metal detectors currently used to screen passengers wouldn’t have found the explosive allegedly carried aboard by the suspect, said former Federal Aviation Administration security chief Billie Vincent. Only more sophisticated devices such as low-level X-rays and millimeter-wave technology would work, Vincent said. "

More here

GUWonder Dec 29, 2009 6:14 am


Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 13072548)
Calls for Full-Body Screening Devices Grow After Terror Attempt

"Dec. 29 (Bloomberg) -- A suspected terrorist’s attempt to blow up a U.S. airliner may override privacy concerns and intensify a push for full-body scanning equipment at airports.

U.S. officials charged a 23-year-old Nigerian man with trying to blow up Northwest Flight 253 as it prepared to land in Detroit on Christmas Day. President Barack Obama said yesterday he ordered a thorough review of the episode and called for new scrutiny of screening policies and technologies.

Metal detectors currently used to screen passengers wouldn’t have found the explosive allegedly carried aboard by the suspect, said former Federal Aviation Administration security chief Billie Vincent. Only more sophisticated devices such as low-level X-rays and millimeter-wave technology would work, Vincent said. "

More here

What the "security" perverts in love with strip searching toddlers and great-grandmothers fail to acknowledge is that strip searches -- physical or electronic -- do not detect explosives. Bomb-sniffing dogs, ETP and ETDs do detect explosives.

GUWonder Dec 29, 2009 6:16 am


Originally Posted by TSORon (Post 13072391)
Oh get over it. Nothing detects explosives.

You seem to have jumped over the truth. Your second sentence above is a fiction.

polonius Dec 29, 2009 6:47 am


Originally Posted by halls120 (Post 13063319)
Is Senator Lieberman going to see to it that WBI's are installed throughout the entire world?

The USA apparently provided Nigeria with several Nude-o-scopes. Not clear if they were in use at Lagos airport, or whether these were part of a tax-payer funded aid package or paid for by Nigeria.

Trollkiller Dec 29, 2009 6:50 am

Follow the money
 
I don't have time to research this right now, but we need to find out where the Nude-O-Scopes are manufactured and in what states do the manufacturer have a substantial presence.


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