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Vietnam to US mistake fare discussion - 2019 Cathay New Year's gift
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/prem...l#post30593717
Has been going on for hours. Wanna bet on the odd CX would honor this? Pretty much days and days of F availability wiped out between HKG and YVR/JFK/EWR/BOS... CX still has not pulled the fares... |
Happy new year. We are just too busy laughing, talking with each other and asking our SOs about it. |
Happy New Year to you too!
From the internet pictures I saw this year the weather is very nice so the firework display at Victoria Harbour is gorgeous. Weather seems quite cold though. 2 years ago Feb 2017 when we specifically arranged our trip to be in Hong Kong for the Chinese New Year, there was very heavy low cloud and all the fireworks exploded way above the thick cloud - a major disappointment. |
I hope they don't honor it. $1-2k USD for an F fare is an obvious, obvious mistake.
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I thought following Great Dane, we aren't supposed to stop using the term mistake fare, and call these fares premium deals. Didn't stop a local blogger calling this fare a bug... |
Originally Posted by QRC3288
(Post 30593796)
I hope they don't honor it. $1-2k USD for an F fare is an obvious, obvious mistake.
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Or are you worried about the hoi polloi filling up the cabin? Or every blogger booking one each and making CX F more blogged than CSR? |
It is dead now... But I wonder does CX have a clause about mistaken fare in their CoC? Otherwise if a ticket is issued, it's a binding contract. So if CX don't honor those fares, it could technically be brought to the small claims court?
CX regularly sells tickets at this price to AS anyways... why not honor those fares lol;) |
Doctrine of mistake. Unilateral price mistake by the seller "snatched up" by the buyer is voidable. Though in compliance with the above, it may not be a mistake... Think US law is generally similar They also have the DOT 399.88 post purchase price prohibition rule but in Great Dane and after the DOT decided not to enforce its own rule, which seemed very Mainlander to me. |
OTA have been slower to react in pulling the fares. Do you think they would still honour this?
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Originally Posted by beach86
(Post 30594016)
OTA have been slower to react in pulling the fares. Do you think they would still honour this?
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Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 30594062)
If Because Air behaves like British Airways, no |
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 30593727)
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/prem...l#post30593717
Has been going on for hours. Wanna bet on the odd CX would honor this? Pretty much days and days of F availability wiped out between HKG and YVR/JFK/EWR/BOS... CX still has not pulled the fares... |
I am following some YYZ flights for Jan and all of a sudden the flights went to J0 C0 D0 I0. A random sample on the surrounding days and also on the YVR flights seems to show the same zeroed-out situation. Wonder whether this is related to CX trying to fix the mistake fare.
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Originally Posted by etkuo
(Post 30594278)
I am following some YYZ flights for Jan and all of a sudden the flights went to J0 C0 D0 I0. A random sample on the surrounding days and also on the YVR flights seems to show the same zeroed-out situation. Wonder whether this is related to CX trying to fix the mistake fare.
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Confirmed that Cx have removed ALL F and J class inventory including subclass for the whole of 2019 to and from North America. |
This article came to mind when I saw the prices this morning https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-14/cathay-pacific-still-assessing-damages-from-worst-airline-hack i was able to snatch 2 exHAN tickets..,exDAD were cheaper but we’re harder to confirm. |
Please do use HK slang here, I have picked up quite a few phrases thanks to their English rendition on Flyertalk.
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Only a matter of time before it turned up in the SCMP:
Cathay Pacific sells first and business class tickets to North America for economy prices in apparent error – but will airline honour deal? |
As it should @dgittings.
Originally Posted by dgittings
(Post 30594519)
Only a matter of time before it turned up in the SCMP:
Cathay Pacific sells first and business class tickets to North America for economy prices in apparent error – but will airline honour deal? |
@MoDs: This is not only a cross post, but also a sure fire way to exacerbate airline response.
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Moderator note: I don’t see any reason why this thread shouldn’t continue here. sxc Cathay Pacific Moderator |
Originally Posted by shd9
(Post 30593865)
It is dead now... But I wonder does CX have a clause about mistaken fare in their CoC? Otherwise if a ticket is issued, it's a binding contract. So if CX don't honor those fares, it could technically be brought to the small claims court?
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will it cause just a refund rather than allow the affected ones to travel? I am waiting for F on these flights:
19/4: CX872 29/4: CX883 |
CX only has 6 F seats per flight, and not all flights.
Given the publicity on many blogs, one could assume that they sold several hundred F tickets. If they honor the error fares, good luck for finding A fares in the coming months. Or good luck for changing your flights if you bought an A fare at high non-error prices. Or good luck for getting an F award to US. |
Originally Posted by brunos
(Post 30595335)
CX only has 6 F seats per flight, and not all flights.
Given the publicity on many blogs, one could assume that they sold several hundred F tickets. |
Originally Posted by percysmith
(Post 30593839)
Didn't stop a local blogger calling this fare a bug...
Originally Posted by tonykline1947
(Post 30595499)
I'm speculating that the number of F tickets sold is well over thousand. EF shows F0 for ~80% of HKG-YVR flights through the EOS, occasional F1 and very rare F2. Once you add BOS, JFK and SFO - its 1-2 thousand at least
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If we actually buy cash F tickets, or use Asia Miles for F upgrades, are we screwed?
If thousands of these tickets were indeed sold, am I correct in assuming F inventory for actual cash passengers and Asia Miles upgrades from J are going to be seriously impacted?
I use all of the above for me and Mrs QRC: A fares, companion awards accompanying A fare (occasionally F fare), J-F Asia Miles upgrades from J class, and in the last two years: Diamond upgrade certs to A class inventory. Does anyone on here know how many tickets were impacted by this? If thousands, and North America only (where I predominantly fly CX F to), back of the envelope math would say we're impacted. If 10k tickets or more, those of us who actually buy A fares regularly / use Asia Miles / Diamond certs are pretty screwed. Ugh. My maths 10x routes = 20x sectors daily to/from North America X 6 seats per flight = 120x F class seats daily to/from North America = 44k seats annually So 2.5k tickets sold means about 5% of the annual F inventory to/from N. America was just swiped by these people. 15k tickets would be 30% of F inventory. And I can only imagine that A fare could be impacted by as much as 50-75%> If a few hundred seats were impacted, it seems like CX could afford to honor and live with their mistake. But if we're talking about thousands of seats, I seriously hope they cancel these tickets. Otherwise it seems there will be a serious impact for the rest of us who actually pay for these tickets normally. |
Originally Posted by QRC3288
(Post 30595874)
If thousands of these tickets were indeed sold, am I correct in assuming F inventory for actual cash passengers and Asia Miles upgrades from J are going to be seriously impacted?
.... If a few hundred seats were impacted, it seems like CX could afford to honor and live with their mistake. But if we're talking about thousands of seats, I seriously hope they cancel these tickets. Otherwise it seems there will be a serious impact for the rest of us who actually pay for these tickets normally. The problem for any airline is that there are only so many passengers who will tolerate the price of full F tickets. If CX tries to make up the loss by closing even more A inventory and forcing F pricing, they cannot invent new passengers willing to tolerate F prices. Therefore, if CX decided to go ahead with these sold tickets, there is a big squeeze on the A inventory, but it doesn't help CX to make the squeeze artificially tighter. That will just result in empty seats. Non-revenue products such as upgrade awards or the like and award redemption space is likely to be the first to be cut. |
Originally Posted by QRC3288
(Post 30595874)
If thousands of these tickets were indeed sold, am I correct in assuming F inventory for actual cash passengers and Asia Miles upgrades from J are going to be seriously impacted?
I use all of the above for me and Mrs QRC: A fares, companion awards accompanying A fare (occasionally F fare), J-F Asia Miles upgrades from J class, and in the last two years: Diamond upgrade certs to A class inventory. Does anyone on here know how many tickets were impacted by this? If thousands, and North America only (where I predominantly fly CX F to), back of the envelope math would say we're impacted. If 10k tickets or more, those of us who actually buy A fares regularly / use Asia Miles / Diamond certs are pretty screwed. Ugh. My maths 10x routes = 20x sectors daily to/from North America X 6 seats per flight = 120x F class seats daily to/from North America = 44k seats annually So 2.5k tickets sold means about 5% of the annual F inventory to/from N. America was just swiped by these people. 15k tickets would be 30% of F inventory. And I can only imagine that A fare could be impacted by as much as 50-75%> If a few hundred seats were impacted, it seems like CX could afford to honor and live with their mistake. But if we're talking about thousands of seats, I seriously hope they cancel these tickets. Otherwise it seems there will be a serious impact for the rest of us who actually pay for these tickets normally. |
Originally Posted by QRC3288
(Post 30595874)
If thousands of these tickets were indeed sold, am I correct in assuming F inventory for actual cash passengers and Asia Miles upgrades from J are going to be seriously impacted?
I use all of the above for me and Mrs QRC: A fares, companion awards accompanying A fare (occasionally F fare), J-F Asia Miles upgrades from J class, and in the last two years: Diamond upgrade certs to A class inventory. Does anyone on here know how many tickets were impacted by this? If thousands, and North America only (where I predominantly fly CX F to), back of the envelope math would say we're impacted. If 10k tickets or more, those of us who actually buy A fares regularly / use Asia Miles / Diamond certs are pretty screwed. Ugh. My maths 10x routes = 20x sectors daily to/from North America X 6 seats per flight = 120x F class seats daily to/from North America = 44k seats annually So 2.5k tickets sold means about 5% of the annual F inventory to/from N. America was just swiped by these people. 15k tickets would be 30% of F inventory. And I can only imagine that A fare could be impacted by as much as 50-75%> If a few hundred seats were impacted, it seems like CX could afford to honor and live with their mistake. But if we're talking about thousands of seats, I seriously hope they cancel these tickets. Otherwise it seems there will be a serious impact for the rest of us who actually pay for these tickets normally. Each ticket has two segments to the USA (oubound and inbound), so 2.5K tickets means 5K sectors or pver 10% of 44K. The impact on A availability to the US, is dramatic now that they have restored availability. Mostly A0 or A1, and many flights for the summer even have F0 which is unheard of. Like you, I buy a lot of rev F CX to /from Europe and it always books into A. F bucket is mostly used for last-minute flyers. I periodically encountered problems in changing flights for two pax (no change fee), because of A availability. It will now be almost impossible to the US. I am sure that CX is debating to cancel those F tickets sold for 1K USD. Countries involved in the legal issues are USA, HK and Vietnam. Apparently cancellation is no a legal problem fro USA and HK. The question is whether Vietnam would "object". The yield management system is fully automated. If they follow Calchas suggestion, it will need lot of work. |
Originally Posted by crazyanglaisy
(Post 30596282)
The word from one of the Cathay staff WhatsApp groups that I'm privy to (and that should be taken with a healthy pinch of salt!) is that about 50% of the entire First Class inventory for 2019 HK-US flights was sold last night.
Or even a minimum price per leg, per booking class, effectively blocking sales, when the published pricing is below the minimum set price. With the 50% and 10 NA returns a day, that would imply some 10K flash sales return tickets in F, in just a couple of hours. Assuming 50% of these tickets would have been sold at $20K, gives a missed revenue of some $100M, currently collected ticket fees some $10M. CX could have done a lot of IT for $90M :D |
Originally Posted by londonexpert
(Post 30594194)
what is because air? Please don’t use Hong Kong Slangs here.
Originally Posted by HarbourGent
(Post 30594473)
Please do use HK slang here, I have picked up quite a few phrases thanks to their English rendition on Flyertalk.
Beside - does that mean we should spell out the cities instead of using the airport code?
Originally Posted by Dr. HFH
(Post 30594849)
Not necessarily in the U.S. In the more recent instances, DOT has ruled that the fare can be refunded at the airline's option. On a strict U.S. common law contract theory, it's an obvious unilateral mistake and voidable, seems to me.
49 U.S.C. § 41713 explicitly preempts states from regulating airlines over prices, routes, and service. And the Erie doctrine ruled out the concept of "federal general common law". On that basis, the U.S. common law contract theory is not applicable here. Nevertheless, 49 U.S.C. § 41712 explicitly prohibits unfair and deceptive practices of airlines. So in the likely event that CX cancels all tickets involved, the only remedy is to file a DOT complaint, which we all know what the possible outcome will be. |
Before people go off the rails about what US law is and is not, remember that DOT's Office of Enforcement has already offered guidance to air carriers on mistake fares. Without approving the practice of cancelling a ticket issued under a mistake fare, DOT has advised that it will not bring enforcement actions against air carriers which cancel mistake tickets so long at the passenger does not have material other non-refundable aspects of his trip booked in reliance on the ticket, eg., prepaid hotels and the like. OR, the carrier refunds those prepaid costs which cannot be recovered.
Bottom line is that DOT is not likely a viable source of comfort. |
Originally Posted by crazyanglaisy
(Post 30596282)
The word from one of the Cathay staff WhatsApp groups that I'm privy to (and that should be taken with a healthy pinch of salt!) is that about 50% of the entire First Class inventory for 2019 HK-US flights was sold last night.
To say nothing of the corner I'm arguing, which is a captive mostly HK-based traveler who actually pays for F class to N. America and is an active member of the MPC / AM programs. For sure, we are the losers here at the expense of an internet army that can strike like the Blitzkrieg exploiting CX's dumb mistake. Winners are the internet arbitrageurs. Losers are CXs actual cash customers, people based in HK and/or otherwise captive to CX for many of our flights, and loyal members of the MPC / AM program. I'll add, partner redemptions are also probably screwed too, so add them in the mix of losers from this. And of course, add CX's finances. F yields are hosed if this happens. Fat chance on our hope for an improved F soft offering if half the customers are opportunists paying peanuts. 50pct!!!! I was assuming 30pct at the worst, which I can also assure you is a massive impact. Fingers crossed CX cancels them all. |
Coincidentally last year Qatar also ‘offered’ similar type of error fares for flights originating from Vietnam! https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/mile...53-usd-rt.html In the end they honoured the tickets. And it seems that the FlyerTalk discussions on the issue were quite different from here :p Wonder why always Vietnam, and wonder why Qatar had to honour the tickets. Should not be because of the consumer law in Vietnam I suppose... |
Originally Posted by Dr. HFH
(Post 30594849)
Not necessarily in the U.S. In the more recent instances, DOT has ruled that the fare can be refunded at the airline's option. On a strict U.S. common law contract theory, it's an obvious unilateral mistake and voidable, seems to me.
Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 30596391)
While I agree with the conclusion, I completely disagree on the rationale.
Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 30596391)
And the Erie doctrine ruled out the concept of "federal general common law". On that basis, the U.S. common law contract theory is not applicable here.
Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 30596391)
Nevertheless, 49 U.S.C. § 41712 explicitly prohibits unfair and deceptive practices of airlines.
Originally Posted by garykung
(Post 30596391)
So in the likely event that CX cancels all tickets involved, the only remedy is to file a DOT complaint, which we all know what the possible outcome will be.
As a matter of prosecutorial discretion, the Enforcement Office will not enforce the requirement of section 399.88 with regard to mistaken fares occurring on or after the date of this notice so long as the airline or seller of air transportation: (1) demonstrates that the fare was a mistaken fare; and (2) reimburses all consumers who purchased a mistaken fare ticket for any reasonable, actual, and verifiable out-of-pocket expenses that were made in reliance upon the ticket purchase, in addition to refunding the purchase price of the ticket. These expenses include, but are not limited to, non-refundable hotel reservations, destination tour packages or activities, cancellation fees for non-refundable connecting air travel and visa or other international travel fees. The airline may ask the consumer requesting out-of-pocket expenses to provide evidence (i.e. receipts or proof of cancellations) of actual costs incurred by the consumer. In essence, the airline or seller of air transportation is required to make the consumer “whole” by restoring the consumer to the position he or she was in prior to the purchase of the mistaken fare. The enforcement policy outlined in this notice is temporary and will remain in effect only until the Department issues a final rule that specifically addresses mistaken fares. If, based on comments received in the rulemaking process, the Department determines that section 399.88 should remain as written, airlines and other sellers of air transportation would be expected to comply and the Enforcement Office would enforce the requirement. |
I have none of Dr. HFHs legal insight or background (which I found a blast and quite interesting to read, as someone from outside the legal profession). But I wouldnt be surprised if CX read the blogs, and saw the obvious gloating and clear-eyed statements by posters essentially acknowledging they know the fare (or fares....) they bought is an obvious mistake.
I know this has happened before at other airlines during mistake fare situations, and there are often informal discussions with competitors and regulators before a final decision is made to cancel the tickets. The publicity and gloating about this CX fare situation definitely doesn't help those hoping their tickets are honored. |
What demonstrates is, CX has NO SAFE GUARD on anything in its system - how could there is no flags/alerts when the sales of premium cabin jumped in such rapid rate, and the inventory being wiped out thru the year so rapidly, to its biggest international destination - US?
There is seriously lacking of any kind of very basic checks, let alone AI, built in its yield management system. Little wonder its customer base got hacked in such scale that no any other company has had as bad in such scale. What is wrong with Cx these days? Before people claimed the former CEO was imcompetent. Now the new management has been in lace for almost 2 years by now? is just incimpetent or worse! A poster named Gene, commented on One Mile at a Time that they were based in Hanoi and have booked SEVENTEEN tickets. S/he gloated that they would spend 2019 flying between Vietnam and JFK, feasting on Caviar and drinking Krug... No way CX would honor these mistake fares. They should do what AF has done - downgrade those tickets to Y, and at the time of travel. That is Excactly what AF did on its mistake fare this March. People found their tickets downgraded to Y when they did their check in. Well deserved I would say. I wish CX would just downgrade all the tickets to Y which are the fares belong. And these people have already passed their 24 hours free cancellation window, so either they fly the Y tickets, or pay $250 to cancel and get back the balance what they paid. |
Originally Posted by Happy
(Post 30596980)
I wish CX would just downgrade all the tickets to Y which are the fares belong. And these people have already passed their 24 hours free cancellation window, so either they fly the Y tickets, or pay $250 to cancel and get back the balance what they paid.
oh mate, isn't that a bit too rough? Though, I must say, though I don't have anything against anyone purchasing an "extraordinary fare" such as this one, I find it quite disagreeable for one to take advantage and purchase multiple tickets, let alone 17 roundtrips. That amount in particular is just distasteful. |
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