Exactly.

Let me first say, I sympathize with the true road warriors / travelers who fly in Y. I was there before and this "enhancement" must be dreadful.

But industry-wise, I don't see how it can be avoided. Passengers *on the whole* (maybe not people who read this forum, but tens of millions of other passengers) vote ruthlessly with their wallets. Save $25 USD to fly SFO-HKG in economy? Most pax "say" sure by paying up again and again. Airlines can easily see this data in the aggregate by just comparing yields, normalized for aircraft type and layout. The economy class yields don't lie. Passengers *on the whole* (again, not this forum) do not pay up enough to justify being 9 across vs 10 across and airlines that insist on sticking with 9 across are punished. Passengers on the whole like cheaper, period in economy class. I will add, for airlines like JAL with a significantly smaller international footprint, it might actually make economic sense for them to do so (I haven't seen their yields, but I do have EK, BA, AA and CX in hand...). But once you reach a certain size, you are competing on many of your routes with another big carrier, two or three, and it's not always nonstop traffic you're competing with. CX is giving up money, plain and simple, if they insist on 9 across and pretend customers pay up for it, when in reality they don't, overall. Like in Godfather I, when Tom Hagan is advising the Godfather to do the deal with Solozzo, if you don't do it, somebody else will, and they will use the money they earn to build up more power...and in our world, build up better products and services that attract even more customers.

EK is 10 across. They operate more 77Ws than anyone globally. CX is #2 . I'm actually surprised CX held out as long as they did. AF, QR, AA, BA, now BR, and god knows who else is 10 across. Unless you have a very specific footprint like JAL where O&D demand is sustained on every route (and even then, it frankly may be the wrong economic decision, but I am not privy to their numbers), it's not possible. CX is now a major competitor with QR and EK on European routes to Australia; part of the huge European increase the last 5-7 years has driven that. Similar to competing with AA (who not only operate 10 across 77Ws, but the jammed 9 across 787s, which is also standard these days) on North America to East and SE Asia.

Yeh, even SQ has 9-abreast on their 787s, and almost guaranteed they'll have 10-abreast on 77X. Quite a pity really, especially given how awful those seats are.

With 77G moving to 77K by 2020 sometime, is it fair to assume that a December 2019 flight to/from JNB is highly likely (as in around 90% likely by my math) to be 10 across in Y?

Somewhat related, is there any risk that CX drops the CPT route? Need to book CPT-HKG. Don't want to book CX and then find myself rerouted via JNB and the 77K.

First time tried 10 cross with a neighbour.... never again.

Yep - Air Canada with their >450 seats on 773ER make out like bandits HKG-YVR. And it isn't that 9 abreast is luxury, so be uncomfortable for 12 hours vs be very uncomfortable for a cost savind

Yep. Once you experience it, you never do it again. I unbeknownst to me booked Emirates A380 London to Dubai, and then 777 to Brisbane via Singapore. I'd flown on BA's 777 in Y no problems. When I got onboard I was wondering why it felt very crowded. I had a centre aisle seat, but my seat neighbour was slightly chunky lady who clutched her hand bag for the majority of the flight. I ended up leaning into the aisle only to be constantly bumped by people and trolleys. To add more pain to the journey, we had a medical emergency and landed in Bangalore for 2 hours where we weren't allowed of the plane! I swore never again.

A couple of months ago I did an all A350 trip LGW-HKG-BNE/MEL-HKG-LGW and it was brilliant. I broke one of my rules of travelling where by we arrived back at London at dawn. I hate those flights, but we came off the A350 fairly refreshed with minimal jet lag. I was really surprised. My normal return point is Brisbane, so I'd need a long layover in HKG to make that trip all A350s.

Be interesting to see if the HKG - LHR will go 10 abreast soon. The 9am HKG departure is my preferred return flight, but no way in a 10 abreast plane. I'm telling all my friends and adding it to my travel blog.

Was on a 3-4-3 regional 777-300 on Monday from HKG to TPE. Coming from Europe and having been on a fixed-shell regional before too, the refurbed-777 economy class is basically a first class regional seat in my books, and I much prefer it over the old-style fixed-shell seats.

On that note, not sure if this is a worthy tip. Given between 6-8pm, there are several wide-body CX/KA flights going from HKG to TPE totalling (with a mix of densified regional 777) 1200/1300 seats, the refurb'ed ones are an improvement given more capacity means emptier seats. At least it was in my case: originally having row 60, we requested to move (as a party of 2) to '3 seats with an empty middle seat' leading us to row 75. Onboard, I noticed that rows 74+ were filled with less than 4/5 people with 77+ being totally empty.

Having flown 3-4-3 economy on 777s numerous times (albeit on QR, same Recaro CL3710 nonetheless), I can say the following:

It is not as bad as people make it out to be! The slimmer seats means bigger perceived legroom, which to most people (at least me) is more noticeable.

I weight train and work out, so have broader shoulders. 50% of my flights are full, even though I sit in the aisle seat, I don't feel I'm any closer to my neighbours as opposed to a 3-3-3 config 777. What I do is, I get a G&T before meal, 2 glasses of wine with meal, cognac + baileys after, that will knock me right out.

Little tip: the bottom portion of the headrest is an adjustable neck support. Pull on it and it will fold up. I find the CL3710 headrest the best amongst all the YCL seats I've flown and I've had the best sleep in them. Padding may 'look' thin but it's where it's needed.

There is so much nonsensical noise that is being made on the 10 abreast that it is death defying of some individuals bias and opinions.
Simply incredible reading some of the comments on this topic.

Let's start with EK, BR, NZ, AF and all the other carriers that have 10 abreast seating for their 777 fleet.
If CX 10 abreast is making your life complicated, fly other carriers.

I have flown on the new CX Y class with 10 abreast seats and I think its comfortable.



Happy travelling :)

Aha, no wonder you have no complaints, you let other people deal with your overflow .....

Having several memories with Ryanairs' seating in a 737 (in my opinion the worst Y passenger seating experience ever), I can not imagine, people are prepared to trade-in the comfort of a wider seat against only a few quid savings.

The ME3 are "saved" by their "break the trip in the middle" principle. So Y passengers get out after a couple of hours and in the meantime are drunk, sitting in front of a huge screen (how long would that be a novelty ?) and then are happy to get out. CX (and other non-ME) can't do that for their LH flights, which might explain why the cramped seating is accepted by ME3 passengers.

i do speak with my money and direct my business to non CX...
10 abrest is a mistake and simpky wrong. problem is world has too much newly minted plebs that just made a cut to be able to travel internationally... and these are cheapest to deliver clientale.... I wonder when next recession hits if these plebs are still travelling and the segment that CAN afford the discretionary spending will stick to CX sardine can

That would quite a challenge. World-wide there are 1 or 2 carriers left, which still do 9 abrest. CX was one of the diehards to try to stick to 9 abreast, though finally had to give in.

Yes, yes, yes, though unfortunately, the reality is different. Where until recently, the airlines could "advertise" with seat pitch, this has nowadays silently become "minimal". The next option to increase profits would be the "unknown to the one time a year flyer, plebs, as you call them", number of seats in a row. EK managed to become popular, despite this 10-abreast in the 777. Since EK is largely known for the A380, where this issue is non-existing, most people aren't aware of the narrow seats at EK.

Maybe, you do have to realize, running an airline is an extremely marginal business. Many, if not most, airline business models fail [hard] and even the ME3 ones are starting to fail. And to be honest, those offering a better proposition, being it Y or J or even F, seem to forget, to qualify the hard facts and attract customers with that.

EK is one of the very few, which manages to properly communicate the "your life at the airport and on board" with facts that are attractive for customers. Most airlines fall into the "general" "feeling well" aspects, etc. Those airlines, which are profitable, do have a large network.

Never done so, only did read about the magnificent EK screens and the praised low pricing. I am not a person to be bribed by secondary items.

Blame Jewel......

(Audio)

Pandan cake from SG is the new mandatory gift for friends, relatives, department and company in HK.

Long live spicy salted duck egg chips.

Cakes are compressible to make room for more bags :D

Overheads from KIX are argurably worse with the duty-free sourvenirs.

10-abreast is like political developments in HK "love it or leave".
It only matters when planes are full i.e. peak seasons
And competition is the only thing we can do to push back at them.

I did fly EK on a 777 and didn't realise it was 10 abreast. That's when I swore I never would fly it again. It was so uncomfortable for the 14 hours I had to endure on it. Hence when I found Cathay a few years ago I was happy - until this development. Now I +route my trips on the A350 as far as possible.

Doing UK to Australia, I never got used to the stop in Dubai on EK or QF. It felt the timings were very wrong. HKG, Singapore, Tokyo and Bangkok are my preferred stop over points. They work better with the night/day breaks. I've had less jet lag from those stops than in the ME.

I feel exactly the same going from Australia to Europe - we much prefer Singapore or Hong Kong as stop over points, and often we'll stay one or two nights there.

We most often go to Europe in July/August, and at this time of the year the furnace like conditions in the Middle East are another strong point in favour of avoiding this region altogether.

Yeah, that is one of the reasons, I avoid the ME3/THY with their stop-overs. When flying J/F, that middle of the flight/night stop is a very inconvenient and uncomfortable aspect.

finnair is good alternative. a350 and OW alliance and you avoid LHR hell. also you have much less backtrack to do. they offer good connection to australia via gateway cities like SIN, HKG (to an extent) or even BKK perhaps (i wont get a leave pass to BKK unless it was overnight transit :D:p, in fact i would ensure economy just for BKK transit haha) to north america JAL is a very real option. these all avoid a 10abrest evil empire.

ME3 was never my thing, but if i had to fly to a very peripheral cities it could be viable options.

I used to enjoy flying JAL and stopping off in Tokyo as it's a fascinating city, but like Finnair, neither fly to Brisbane. JAL used but pulled out. I despise having to fly to Sydney and do the shuffle from International to Domestic terminals and then have to wait a few more hours before arriving in Brisbane. Hence why Cathay is my favourite currently, but while the outbound is fine and I can book A350s all the way, coming back means using the A330 or an even longer wait to make it A350s all the way back. It's about a 17 hour stop over, but after an overnight flight I'm not sure I'd be in the right frame of mind to do a trip into HK.

Realising I was on a 77K (B-KQX), I went to the back to see the new seats and try them out.

Since I was squatting I wasn't allowed much time.

Seat comfort felt good - better than the old TZ and JL domestic iterations I had to endure. Perhaps helped by age of seats.

Didn't really have to touch shoulders with my seat neighbour, who was incredibly petite.

Y was 2/3 full on my SYD-HKG CX100 flight and almost every alternate seat was empty. PE and J were stuffed to the gills since CX162 was cancelled.

BnE is well serviced by QF at fares below those of CX. just avoid QF 787 as their 9 abrest is atkin to CX 777 10 abrest in economy that does service BNE once in a while.

i do agree CX A350 is great bird, saving grace of an otherwise Cathay pathetic. but CX owns too much 777 so odds of ending up with their 10abrest is higher than 350s

Well that all depends which routes you flying given that many are exclusively or predominantly served by the 350/330. BNE for example. That will only increase over time as the 777 forms a progressively smaller proportion of the fleet.

delete

A friend echoed my sentiments. However get a broad-shouldered neighbour and your experience may be different.

CX ordered tons of 777X to replace 777-300ER. A350 is served more to replace current mid-longhaul A330 routes (SYD/MEL/BNE)
Anyway, the default Boeing seat configuration for 777X is 3-4-3, given the marginally wider space.

777X is comparable to 787 and 737 at ~17.6 inches (using CX's way of calculating 77W 3-4-3 as 17.2 inches). 77W 3-4-3 is a league of its own.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.fly...32f0cc93b0.png

Actually, CX has "ordered" 21 777X. The a350 is fundamentally a long-haul aircraft (as witnessed by the fact that it serves CX's current longest route HKG-IAD) albeit that because it is a highly flexible aircraft it is also capable of efficiently operating medium to long routes such as Aus. As for the future market for the 777X and whether operators such as Cathay are likely to order "tons" of them given the economics and increasing payload capacity of the s350 and 787 families, you might want to check out interesting discussions on this topic on other forums such as airliners.net.

The 779s will replace the 77As on what few routes keep first class but the A350s have a longer range capability when full of pax than the 779/77A. Especially with the new +3t option for the A35K and the +3t 359s.

Broad-Shouldered neighbor made even HKG to NRT pretty brutal. I can only imagine another 10 hours going on to somewhere like LAX......