Opaque nature of change fees
#16
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,660
Lol
On opaqueness: the OP wants to make a change to the first flight before travel. Almost like a new booking, is the answer.
But, take one leg and then want to change? A whole new system of nicer rules. Go figure.
Just make sure you get your changes ticketed. A ‘confirmed reservation’ is not a confirmed reservation.
On opaqueness: the OP wants to make a change to the first flight before travel. Almost like a new booking, is the answer.
But, take one leg and then want to change? A whole new system of nicer rules. Go figure.
Just make sure you get your changes ticketed. A ‘confirmed reservation’ is not a confirmed reservation.
#17
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: DUB
Programs: BA Gold; AA LTG MM
Posts: 103
I completely agree with the issue of not being able to find the fare rules after you've booked. Sure, during the booking process, you can scroll down and see the detailed rules but, once you've booked, they're gone. I had a recent round trip between TLS and IAD that was booked into J and D. When I booked, I remember scrolling down and seeing there were no change or cancellation fees. As it turned out, I had to cancel, but had €250 deducted from the refund. I called the GGL line and was told that my fare rules included a €125 cancellation fee each way. How on earth was I to argue when I hadn't saved the fare rules at the time of booking? Well, I did find a way, because I then went to recreate the booking on ba.com for the same itinerary, but a week later, and got exactly the same price and exactly the same fare rules as I had described, not those invented by BA after the fact, which I trust was just an "IT glitch" rather than sharp practice. I forwarded the details to BA who have agreed that I am due a €250 refund. (Not that I've yet received the refund three weeks later, though.)
The practice of putting up fare rules just before purchase and never being able to see them again is a sharp practice, I believe.
Lesson learned - always take a pdf of the fare rules before going to the next step of the booking process.
The practice of putting up fare rules just before purchase and never being able to see them again is a sharp practice, I believe.
Lesson learned - always take a pdf of the fare rules before going to the next step of the booking process.
#18
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
If, before you do the outbound travel, you change the outbound part of your ticket, then it is indeed pretty much like making a new booking. If you've done the outbound travel and you want to change the outbound part of your ticket ... oh, wait.You can always see them again. It just takes more work, and you may not be able to do it yourself on the Internet unless you subscribe to a service like EF - but there is always some way in which you can get to see them again.
#19
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I don’t know what your definition of opaque is, but I’m not sure that a process that is understood by a subset of members on an enthusiasts website who require access to a third party subscription based database to get the answer to a fairly simple ask (changing one flight) makes much of a case for the defence.
Actually, on reflection, I’m being too generous. Claiming that airline ticketing and particularly post-purchase changes is anything other than opaque is quite frankly preposterous (Ryanair, Easyjet and most LCCs excepted).
Actually, on reflection, I’m being too generous. Claiming that airline ticketing and particularly post-purchase changes is anything other than opaque is quite frankly preposterous (Ryanair, Easyjet and most LCCs excepted).
In any case, I think it's the same rule for both BA and Ryanair: change fee plus fare difference. The real complaint is that the fare difference is unknowable in advance. But that must be definition be so, because you cannot know at the time of purchase what the applicable fare will be at the later time when you want to make a change. That's the basically same complaint as from those who say "I don't like the fares on offer now. If I wait, will I get a better fare later?" As a wise man said, predictions are difficult, especially about the future. There's nothing opaque about that concept.
#20
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
You can then make an educated guess on the amount to be paid based on the available fare bucket by looking at BA.com (clicking on the flight number associated with the fare gives you the booking class).
It's a bit of a rough and ready method but it at least provides a rough guidance figure.
As for the fare conditions, I take a PDF printout of anything that I may not remember and might need to know later on.
The TA I use is excellent though - they always read out the fare conditions (even though they know I already know... They insist!) and they'll tell me if I ever need reminding.
Last edited by LTN Phobia; Mar 21, 2019 at 8:01 am
#21
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: DUB
Programs: BA Gold; AA LTG MM
Posts: 103
Nevertheless, BA should include the detailed fare rules in the confirmation email, either as full text or a link. They include lots of links to other things, but not this important one. I'm not sure it would go down well if BA responded to a request for a copy of the fare rules by saying, "Go buy yourself a $100 subscription to a third party service to find that out."
#22
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
Full fare rules are returned for fully published fares. Sometimes EF will not show you the fare rules for DIFs, but if ITA will price a DIF then you will be able to see the full fare rules.
And the rules are filed, so by one means or another, they will always be available if you need them. After all, if there were litigation about them, they would have to be produced.
#23
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,839
No, you don't require access to a subscription service to get the full fare rules before you buy. So that complaint is out of the window.
In any case, I think it's the same rule for both BA and Ryanair: change fee plus fare difference. The real complaint is that the fare difference is unknowable in advance. But that must be definition be so, because you cannot know at the time of purchase what the applicable fare will be at the later time when you want to make a change. That's the basically same complaint as from those who say "I don't like the fares on offer now. If I wait, will I get a better fare later?" As a wise man said, predictions are difficult, especially about the future. There's nothing opaque about that concept.
In any case, I think it's the same rule for both BA and Ryanair: change fee plus fare difference. The real complaint is that the fare difference is unknowable in advance. But that must be definition be so, because you cannot know at the time of purchase what the applicable fare will be at the later time when you want to make a change. That's the basically same complaint as from those who say "I don't like the fares on offer now. If I wait, will I get a better fare later?" As a wise man said, predictions are difficult, especially about the future. There's nothing opaque about that concept.
The difficulty comes not just from the high level concept of a change fee plus a fare basis but the complexity within those constituent parts and how they interact. So the concept between BA and FR may be the same, but the complexity in each component and consequently ease of understanding between the two is chalk and cheese.
I think we’ll just agree to disagree.
#24
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Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
Sure, but it would be interesting to see any thoughts on how one could make "fare difference" substantially simpler to predict in these cases. Remember that the complexities of fares for long-haul travel are an integral part of what makes it possible to travel around the world unbelievably cheaply - and I include premium cabins in that.
#25
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
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When it comes to change/cancellation fees and deadlines, i do agree that when you book direct from ba (at least) they should include the specific details in the e-ticket confirmation they send just like most other airlines do. This would be basic transparency and enable passengers to feel the relationship is a bit less imbalanced when they call reservations and effectively just have to take the airline’s word for costs and conditions.
at the same time, just like Globaliser, I feel that the op’s complaint is not about the opacity of change fees or conditions but about the actual cost of the fare difference. As this, by definition, is dependent on the cost of the new ticket which can vary to quasi infinity, there is no obvious way of giving ‘clear’ indications.
In other words, even with the best will in the world, transparency does not have the power to transform what is complicated into something simple.
at the same time, just like Globaliser, I feel that the op’s complaint is not about the opacity of change fees or conditions but about the actual cost of the fare difference. As this, by definition, is dependent on the cost of the new ticket which can vary to quasi infinity, there is no obvious way of giving ‘clear’ indications.
In other words, even with the best will in the world, transparency does not have the power to transform what is complicated into something simple.
#26
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: RTW
Posts: 677
+1 in support of including the change/cancellation conditions on the booking confirmation. The last time I downloaded a BA e-ticket I got 8 pages of far less relevant content (I now print off as a single page on the QR site following a helpful hint here).
#27
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: London, UK and Southern France
Posts: 18,364
If, before you do the outbound travel, you change the outbound part of your ticket, then it is indeed pretty much like making a new booking. If you've done the outbound travel and you want to change the outbound part of your ticket ... oh, wait.You can always see them again. It just takes more work, and you may not be able to do it yourself on the Internet unless you subscribe to a service like EF - but there is always some way in which you can get to see them again.
The fare rules are part of the contract between the passenger and the airline and I do not think that it is too much to ask for the airline to provide a copy of them with the confirmation or, perhaps more conveniently (especially as it still is the case that the vast majority of passengers will never consult them), a link to those rules either directly from the confirmation email or from MMB.
#28
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK London / Salisbury
Programs: BA GGL, CCR, LTG
Posts: 543
Postscript
Ah well, I got up at 4am, flew to Boston, boarded the flight I was originally booked on. Turned down a paid upgrade at the gate ($670 J>F), approached the aircraft door and the CSM who appeared to be waiting for me said 'good morning Mr Brentford77, we have a slightly better seat for you, please turn left and follow me'. So I spent the next 6 hours considering the definition of 'opaque' over a couple of glasses of Laurent Perrier...
Ah well, I got up at 4am, flew to Boston, boarded the flight I was originally booked on. Turned down a paid upgrade at the gate ($670 J>F), approached the aircraft door and the CSM who appeared to be waiting for me said 'good morning Mr Brentford77, we have a slightly better seat for you, please turn left and follow me'. So I spent the next 6 hours considering the definition of 'opaque' over a couple of glasses of Laurent Perrier...