Jan 1, 2019, 2:39 am
Last edit by: corporate-wage-slave
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
787 cancellations due to Trent engine issues - CEDR ruling information from the post in the 2018 thread and onwards.
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
787 cancellations due to Trent engine issues - CEDR ruling information from the post in the 2018 thread and onwards.
The 2019 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Feb 11, 2019, 1:27 pm
#166
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Just get on with your CEDR using the advice in this thread, focus on the point at which BA were aware of the 787 issue and the point at which the flight was cancelled, and tell CEDR that in your view it did not use "all reasonable measures" to avoid inconveniencing you.
Feb 11, 2019, 1:46 pm
#167
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,972
Thanks, I guess I just have to keep asking for them to provide compensation until they refer me to CEDR or the 8 weeks comes due. Is that right?
Feb 11, 2019, 1:47 pm
#168
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Newcastle-upon-Tyne
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 177
Before you log a case with CEDR you need to request a referral from BA. CEDR will not process the case without one.
Feb 11, 2019, 2:00 pm
#169
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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"Thank you for your reply dated x. I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, BA have not taken all reasonable measure in respect of my delay. Therefore can you confirm that this is your final decision on the matter, so that I can take the issue to MCOL or CEDR for their resolution?"
They will then send their "our answer will not change" answer and probably gives you a hyperlink to CEDR. On the CEDR submission ensure that particular reply, "our answer will not change", is added to the file. Easiest to do this by entering in the relevant CEDR form and uploading the file then, or you can create a username and password and add it immediately after your main CEDR entry. This will allow the CEDR administrator to see that you have done the right thing. In either the Claim area or the Notes section, say very clearly you accept this is Extraordinary Circumstances, but you don't believe all reasonable steps were taken, per the other cases.
Feb 11, 2019, 3:04 pm
#170
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 4,972
Send a short note to BA with the following wording (keep it short for speed!).
"Thank you for your reply dated x. I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, BA have not taken all reasonable measure in respect of my delay. Therefore can you confirm that this is your final decision on the matter, so that I can take the issue to MCOL or CEDR for their resolution?"
They will then send their "our answer will not change" answer and probably gives you a hyperlink to CEDR. On the CEDR submission ensure that particular reply, "our answer will not change", is added to the file. Easiest to do this by entering in the relevant CEDR form and uploading the file then, or you can create a username and password and add it immediately after your main CEDR entry. This will allow the CEDR administrator to see that you have done the right thing. In either the Claim area or the Notes section, say very clearly you accept this is Extraordinary Circumstances, but you don't believe all reasonable steps were taken, per the other cases.
"Thank you for your reply dated x. I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, BA have not taken all reasonable measure in respect of my delay. Therefore can you confirm that this is your final decision on the matter, so that I can take the issue to MCOL or CEDR for their resolution?"
They will then send their "our answer will not change" answer and probably gives you a hyperlink to CEDR. On the CEDR submission ensure that particular reply, "our answer will not change", is added to the file. Easiest to do this by entering in the relevant CEDR form and uploading the file then, or you can create a username and password and add it immediately after your main CEDR entry. This will allow the CEDR administrator to see that you have done the right thing. In either the Claim area or the Notes section, say very clearly you accept this is Extraordinary Circumstances, but you don't believe all reasonable steps were taken, per the other cases.
Feb 12, 2019, 2:32 pm
#171
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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CEDR experience - but not 787 Trent related
So ladies and gentlemen of the BA forum, I have just successfully taken BA through CEDR in my first ever personal claim against the airline. Clearly I have chosen (deliberately) not to claim EC261 in previous incidents, mainly on the basis of being well looked after. That didn't happen on 22 January 2019, when I had an irrop at MAD and it wasn't well handled at all.
Some timelines to begin with
- 22 January - irrop caused by cabin baggage issue on BA464, missed my connection at MAD to BA7188 (Iberia's service to Santander), booked as one ticket EDI-LHR-MAD-SDR.
- 23 January - get to Santander 9 hours and 56 minutes late, having spent the night in a hotel arranged by Iberia (Tryp Suites).
- 23 January - filled in the claim form via BA.com/delay for 400€
- 28 January - Customer Relations offered 10k Avios but denied the claim. They didn't actually use the words "exceptional circumstances" (there was bad weather that night too).
- 28 January - I reverted asking if this is their final answer?
- 29 January - Customer Relations replied "our answer will not change".
- 30 January - filled in CEDR form and uploaded the following files: the two responses from BA, my original claim to BA, my original e-ticket, an update e-ticket (BA cancelled a service but that wasn't directly an issue here). I also submitted the Expertflyer dispatch notes for my flight and for an Iberia flight LHR T5 to MAD T4 scheduled 30 minutes after my flight and which did make the Santander connection.
- 31 January - CEDR completed an initial scan of my claim and they agreed that I had a case (CEDR rules say it can take 15 days for this stage). BA informed they had until 21 February to file a defence.
- 12 February - BA contact CEDR and say they will settle in full, and request my bank details.
This is probably as fast as it can get, the whole process took under 3 weeks.
Now the cabin baggage difficult was much worse than any I have ever seen before. Two flights had been combined, no emails sent out, and the gate staff seemed unaware that this would give an huge problem with cabin baggage - though it was pretty obvious to me when I walked towards the gate. Moreover there wasn't an experienced turnaround manager deployed here - who would have headed this off at the gulch - instead we had a very inexperienced ramp supervisor who was clearly out of his depth. The miserable cabin crew really did not cover themselves with any glory here, there were two Seniors on board, and it was only thanks to the non-lead Senior that we got away at all. That required 11 passengers to be offloaded from the aircraft, 16 extra bags tagged and sent to the hold, and then the passengers reloaded. This wasn't the usual 2 to 5 minute slam-bang effort, it took 45 minutes to resolve.
In my CEDR "Claim" section, I just entered:
I think this is relevant when there is a bad weather event (so BA is programmed to refuse all claims) but there were also some event(s) under BA's control. The flight was delayed 45 minutes by the baggage issue, and about 25 minutes by the need to de-ice, but made up 10 minutes by a particularly fast flight to MAD - the bad weather had an upside. De-icing is also under BA's control here, however given Minimum Connection Time at MAD this wasn't going to be an issue.
Some timelines to begin with
- 22 January - irrop caused by cabin baggage issue on BA464, missed my connection at MAD to BA7188 (Iberia's service to Santander), booked as one ticket EDI-LHR-MAD-SDR.
- 23 January - get to Santander 9 hours and 56 minutes late, having spent the night in a hotel arranged by Iberia (Tryp Suites).
- 23 January - filled in the claim form via BA.com/delay for 400€
- 28 January - Customer Relations offered 10k Avios but denied the claim. They didn't actually use the words "exceptional circumstances" (there was bad weather that night too).
- 28 January - I reverted asking if this is their final answer?
- 29 January - Customer Relations replied "our answer will not change".
- 30 January - filled in CEDR form and uploaded the following files: the two responses from BA, my original claim to BA, my original e-ticket, an update e-ticket (BA cancelled a service but that wasn't directly an issue here). I also submitted the Expertflyer dispatch notes for my flight and for an Iberia flight LHR T5 to MAD T4 scheduled 30 minutes after my flight and which did make the Santander connection.
- 31 January - CEDR completed an initial scan of my claim and they agreed that I had a case (CEDR rules say it can take 15 days for this stage). BA informed they had until 21 February to file a defence.
- 12 February - BA contact CEDR and say they will settle in full, and request my bank details.
This is probably as fast as it can get, the whole process took under 3 weeks.
Now the cabin baggage difficult was much worse than any I have ever seen before. Two flights had been combined, no emails sent out, and the gate staff seemed unaware that this would give an huge problem with cabin baggage - though it was pretty obvious to me when I walked towards the gate. Moreover there wasn't an experienced turnaround manager deployed here - who would have headed this off at the gulch - instead we had a very inexperienced ramp supervisor who was clearly out of his depth. The miserable cabin crew really did not cover themselves with any glory here, there were two Seniors on board, and it was only thanks to the non-lead Senior that we got away at all. That required 11 passengers to be offloaded from the aircraft, 16 extra bags tagged and sent to the hold, and then the passengers reloaded. This wasn't the usual 2 to 5 minute slam-bang effort, it took 45 minutes to resolve.
In my CEDR "Claim" section, I just entered:
EC261/2004 Article 7.1.b for a delay exceeding 3 hours. This is on the basis of EDI to MAD is 1068 miles, 1718 kms, hence 400 Euros, on the basis that MAD was where the following applies: "In determining the distance, the basis shall be the last destination at which the denial of boarding or cancellation will delay the passenger's arrival after the scheduled time".
and on the "Other information" section I entered (note a rather juicy quote from BA which would have been interesting to argue):I was delayed by 9 hours 56 minutes arriving into Santander because I missed my connection in Madrid. I arrived as the SDR flight was on final call at the other end of MAD T4 and so missed the flight by about 10 to 15 minutes. The reason I missed my connection was because BA spent 45 minutes after departure time resolving excess cabin baggage, offloading 11 passengers temporarily, rechecking 16 bags and resubmitting paperwork using inexperienced staff. This was despite the fact that all passengers were initially boarded ahead of the scheduled departure time.
I applied for EC261 compensation but BA's reply was: "Although the issue with the cabin baggage was within our control, under EU legislation we're not liable for a compensation payment in this situation". I believe this incorrect, that there were no extraordinary circumstances with baggage issues, and in any case BA didn't take any of their usual reasonable measures to avoid the delay, let alone all of them.
Moreover the Iberia service, also leaving LHR T5 for MAD T4 that was scheduled to leave 30 minutes later than my service got to MAD 20 minutes before my service, a difference of 50 minutes, and passengers from that service made the connection. I have applied for 400 Euros compensation, BA have offered 10,000 Avios but they indicated this may be withdrawn with this application to CEDR. I have not applied for a refund of the ticket under 8.1.a despite my short trip being in vain. The return was on a separate ticket with Ryanair so I couldn't easily require BA to return me to EDI given the single ticket. However 400 euros exceeds the ticket cost (£128.94).
And BA's final response was:I applied for EC261 compensation but BA's reply was: "Although the issue with the cabin baggage was within our control, under EU legislation we're not liable for a compensation payment in this situation". I believe this incorrect, that there were no extraordinary circumstances with baggage issues, and in any case BA didn't take any of their usual reasonable measures to avoid the delay, let alone all of them.
Moreover the Iberia service, also leaving LHR T5 for MAD T4 that was scheduled to leave 30 minutes later than my service got to MAD 20 minutes before my service, a difference of 50 minutes, and passengers from that service made the connection. I have applied for 400 Euros compensation, BA have offered 10,000 Avios but they indicated this may be withdrawn with this application to CEDR. I have not applied for a refund of the ticket under 8.1.a despite my short trip being in vain. The return was on a separate ticket with Ryanair so I couldn't easily require BA to return me to EDI given the single ticket. However 400 euros exceeds the ticket cost (£128.94).
Originally Posted by BA to CEDR
I can confirm EU compensation is payable for the delay to flight BA0464 on 22 January 2019. The distance of the disrupted journey was between 1,500km and 3,500km as calculated in accordance with EU legislation. As there is one passenger in this claim, you are entitled to €400.00 in total. This is equivalent to £350.82 in accordance with the European Central Bank. On acceptance of the offer, we will require your bank name, sort code and account number. I’m sorry for the delay it’s taken to resolve the case. Kind regards, British Airways.
Feb 13, 2019, 4:37 am
#172
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,578
Anyone else genuinely surprised that this was CWS's first BA CEDR case?
Feb 13, 2019, 5:01 am
#173
Join Date: Jul 2009
Programs: BAEC Silver, IHG Diamond
Posts: 7,770
Are the final decisions emailed or sent via snail mail?
Been a couple of weeks since BA put their defence in and I responded. I know it says up to 30 says, but I haven't been home yet, should there be anything mailed.
Been a couple of weeks since BA put their defence in and I responded. I know it says up to 30 says, but I haven't been home yet, should there be anything mailed.
Feb 13, 2019, 7:34 am
#174
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,821
As far as I can tell it's all email. Moreover you can just log into your CEDR Modria login, click on Discussion, and you will see the process flow there. Once BA or CEDR say something there will be an update there, and an email to you.
Feb 13, 2019, 7:35 am
#175
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,821
Feb 13, 2019, 9:28 am
#177
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Gatwick, UK
Programs: UA *G, BA Silver
Posts: 1,673
BA268 (LAX-LHR) - 6 hour delay on tarmac changing 4 wheels
At or after pushback on Monday night, but before we reached the runway we had two punctures in the same wheel set. We were directed to a remote stand where engineers (late at night) changed two wheels on the A380 while it was loaded with passengers and meals were served. Then they decided the two undamaged tires couldn't be trusted (due to the distance travelled on just them) and so those two then had to be changed as well.
All told it was a 6 hour delay, all of it onboard on the tarmac.
At baggage claim at LHR, people were telling each other to claim the compensation, which I shall, but I have to admit it felt exceptional to me. Has anyone here had a similar delay - how did BA treat it? Any predictions here?
For those interested, they served meals on the ground, but with no alcohol served.
And then (to top it all) my bag was never handed from AA to BA at LAX and so my bag arrived 18 hours after me.
All told it was a 6 hour delay, all of it onboard on the tarmac.
At baggage claim at LHR, people were telling each other to claim the compensation, which I shall, but I have to admit it felt exceptional to me. Has anyone here had a similar delay - how did BA treat it? Any predictions here?
For those interested, they served meals on the ground, but with no alcohol served.
And then (to top it all) my bag was never handed from AA to BA at LAX and so my bag arrived 18 hours after me.
Feb 13, 2019, 11:36 am
#178
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,246
LAX gets a good number of A380 visitors including Asiana and China Southern with their magnificent liveries which we don’t see at LHR, 1.5 hours per wheel seems pretty good and may be better than an airport with fewer A380 visitors.
Feb 13, 2019, 2:08 pm
#179
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,821
DOBA268/11FEB
* OPERATIONAL FLIGHT INFO * BA 268 -2 MO 11FEB19
CITY INFO HOUR (LOCAL)
LAX ESTIMATED TIME OF DEPARTURE 0300
LEFT THE GATE 0319
TOOK OFF 0332
ESTIMATED TIME OF ARRIVAL 2115 LHR
LHR AIRCRAFT LANDED 2112
ARRIVED 2118
*1A PLANNED FLIGHT INFO* BA 268 -2 MO 11FEB19
APT ARR DY DEP DY CLASS/MEAL EQP GRND EFT TTL
LAX 2105 MO FAJCDRIWETY/M 388 10:20
BHKMLVSNQOG/M
X/M
LHR 1525 TU 10:20
BHKMLVSNQOG/M
COMMENTS-
1.LAX LHR - MEMBER OF ONEWORLD
2.LAX LHR - DEPARTS TERMINAL B
3.LAX LHR - ARRIVES TERMINAL 5
4.LAX LHR - 9/ NON-SMOKING
5.LAX LHR - SECURED FLIGHT
6.LAX LHR - ET/ ELECTRONIC TKT CANDIDATE
7.LAX LHR - CO2/PAX* 455.55 KG ECO, 911.11 KG PRE
(*):SOURCE:ICAO CARBON EMISSIONS CALCULATOR
CONFIGURATION-
388 F 14 J 97 W 55 M 303
I can't recall an exact parallel here but this seems an inherent technical failure activity rather than exceptional circumstances, unless someone has been scattering tacks on the LAX runway. It doesn't seem much different to (e.g.) a cargo door not shutting properly. But I don't say that with a lot of confidence, it was pretty unlucky however you look at it.
* OPERATIONAL FLIGHT INFO * BA 268 -2 MO 11FEB19
CITY INFO HOUR (LOCAL)
LAX ESTIMATED TIME OF DEPARTURE 0300
LEFT THE GATE 0319
TOOK OFF 0332
ESTIMATED TIME OF ARRIVAL 2115 LHR
LHR AIRCRAFT LANDED 2112
ARRIVED 2118
*1A PLANNED FLIGHT INFO* BA 268 -2 MO 11FEB19
APT ARR DY DEP DY CLASS/MEAL EQP GRND EFT TTL
LAX 2105 MO FAJCDRIWETY/M 388 10:20
BHKMLVSNQOG/M
X/M
LHR 1525 TU 10:20
BHKMLVSNQOG/M
COMMENTS-
1.LAX LHR - MEMBER OF ONEWORLD
2.LAX LHR - DEPARTS TERMINAL B
3.LAX LHR - ARRIVES TERMINAL 5
4.LAX LHR - 9/ NON-SMOKING
5.LAX LHR - SECURED FLIGHT
6.LAX LHR - ET/ ELECTRONIC TKT CANDIDATE
7.LAX LHR - CO2/PAX* 455.55 KG ECO, 911.11 KG PRE
(*):SOURCE:ICAO CARBON EMISSIONS CALCULATOR
CONFIGURATION-
388 F 14 J 97 W 55 M 303
Feb 14, 2019, 4:30 am
#180
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 65
duty of care claim?
Hoping someone can give me a bit of advice and let me know if I have a case to claim reimbursement for my expenses when my flight was cancelled.
The problem came about after this series of events:
1- Flight was delayed - Fri 01/02 BA1317 ABZ-LHR @ 20:20 (think this was due to combination of late arrival/fog)
2- Offered rebooking at 11:30pm to Sat 02/02 BA1441 EDI-LHR @ 10:35 (no seats left from ABZ)
3- Transport arranged by staff at ABZ - taxi to pick me up from home at 6am to take me to EDI
4- Transport failed to arrive - called taxi company - others had been booked but not me!
5- Booked my own transport - paid £267!!
From what I understand having looked at the regs I believe I am entitled to be reimbursed for transport and that the extraordinary circumstances (adverse weather) clause does not apply to this entitlement to assistance.
Am I wrong?
Following the submission of my claim and a few messages back and forth BA are refusing to pay the full cost of transport stating that it is in "excess of the reasonable costs expected for a journey of that nature".
While it is a lot of money, there was no other way for me to arrange travel to EDI at 6am on a Saturday morning and be there in time to catch a flight at 10:35 - having been let down by their failure to arrange the taxi in the first place.
A few other passengers made the same journey, at the same time, on taxis booked and paid by the staff at ABZ but somehow mine was missed.
I'm feeling a little peeved right now.
If I am right in thinking I have a case, where do I go from here?
Should I send a recorded letter to the UK customer services, small claims or try this CEDR thing I read about?
Any other advice?
Thanks
The problem came about after this series of events:
1- Flight was delayed - Fri 01/02 BA1317 ABZ-LHR @ 20:20 (think this was due to combination of late arrival/fog)
2- Offered rebooking at 11:30pm to Sat 02/02 BA1441 EDI-LHR @ 10:35 (no seats left from ABZ)
3- Transport arranged by staff at ABZ - taxi to pick me up from home at 6am to take me to EDI
4- Transport failed to arrive - called taxi company - others had been booked but not me!
5- Booked my own transport - paid £267!!
From what I understand having looked at the regs I believe I am entitled to be reimbursed for transport and that the extraordinary circumstances (adverse weather) clause does not apply to this entitlement to assistance.
Am I wrong?
Following the submission of my claim and a few messages back and forth BA are refusing to pay the full cost of transport stating that it is in "excess of the reasonable costs expected for a journey of that nature".
While it is a lot of money, there was no other way for me to arrange travel to EDI at 6am on a Saturday morning and be there in time to catch a flight at 10:35 - having been let down by their failure to arrange the taxi in the first place.
A few other passengers made the same journey, at the same time, on taxis booked and paid by the staff at ABZ but somehow mine was missed.
I'm feeling a little peeved right now.
If I am right in thinking I have a case, where do I go from here?
Should I send a recorded letter to the UK customer services, small claims or try this CEDR thing I read about?
Any other advice?
Thanks