Just a quick note / update:

BA Customer Services called me within 24 hours of submitting the claim, and asked for bank details to pay the €600. I was told to expect the payment to hit my account in 2-3 days.

Credit due to the Customer Services for the speed of the response. :)

That's slow by the standards of opalfruit, he got his refund between 2 posts on FT! But the new policy of calling customers seems to cheer people up, from what I'm seeing. Thank you for reporting back.

Help please re EC261 and Amex 2-4-1 and downgrade
 

I’d really appreciate your help with my claim for compensation from BA. I have read this excellent thread in detail and followed the links (although I can’t get the Flightmole link to work), but have two remaining questions to which as yet I cannot find the answers.

First the facts. My wife and I were due to fly back from GCM to LHR via NAS on 7 February 2017 in CW on flight BA252. This was the return leg of an Avios and Amex 2-4-1 redemption. The inbound BA253 terminated at NAS due to a malfunctioning weather radar and returned to LHR without visiting GCM, so our flight was cancelled. The next BA252 was on 9 February but there was no availability in CW. Indeed there is still no availability in CW on BA252 until 12 February. We therefore reluctantly accepted a return routing on 8 February on American in economy to MIA and then from MIA to LHR on BA208 in WTP; at the time we were told that there was no CW availability on BA208 on 8 February.

On arrival at MIA on 8 Feb I signed up for Expert Flyer and, 4 hours before scheduled departure, noted that there were three seats available in CW on BA208, and one in First. We approached the gate agent and explained our situation and asked whether we might be allocated seats in CW. She spent 20 minutes on the phone to operations without success and asked us to wait in the lounge where they would find us and update us. On entering the lounge we again made the agent aware of the situation. I refreshed Expert Flyer right up until boarding – the seat map in CW changed frequently, with the seats listed as available changing but still at least two being available, until 90 minutes before departure when the final two seats changed to ‘blocked’, and then shortly after to occupied. Nobody from BA approached us but when we asked the lounge agent 2 hours before departure for an update we were told that Expert Flyer is unreliable and there was no chance we would be seated in CW. We therefore flew home in WTP. As we had a 250 mile drive home after landing we had counted on the flat bed to get some sleep so this was not ideal.

Whilst waiting in the lounge and since returning home I have been in contact with BA via Twitter. They immediately accepted that EC261 compensation of 600 Euros each is due, but are disputing the compensation I believe is due for the downgrade. They initially claimed that EC261 does not apply to Avios or Amex 2-4-1 redemptions, but only to ‘revenue bookings’. I referred them to Article 3.3 of EC261 and they are currently considering. The redemption booking cost 125,000 Avios plus an Amex 2-4-1, so effectively 250,000 Avios. My reading of EC261 is that we are due back 75% of the ‘price paid’. Because a voucher cannot be partially refunded I am interpreting the amount due back to us as being 75% of the Avios, i.e. 187,500, plus 75% of the fees and taxes paid, amounting to a further £813. We also paid for selected seats so are due back the element relating to the return leg. I see from point 25 of the first post of this thread that there is some ambiguity over Amex 2-4-1 downgrades, although reading the regulation to me it is clear that use of the voucher is part of the price paid, exactly as for Avios, which is specifically covered under Article 3.3. As BA may continue to push back on this I would appreciate any advice or insights that you can offer.

My second question relates to the accuracy of Expert Flyer. Are the seat maps I saw in the few hours leading up to departure of BA208 accurate, and if so am I understanding correctly that there may have been CW seats available that BA chose not to allocate to us, perhaps because we were on Avios redemption flights and both lowly silvers, and may instead have used to upgrade other passengers? If so, then I am minded to push for a full refund of the entire price paid and Avios used as BA will have wilfully breached the contract between us to fly us in the CW seats for which we paid, albeit using Avios and a voucher.

I have pointed out to them that had we exercised our right to wait in GCM until they could offer us return flights under ‘comparable transport conditions’, as required by EC261, then they would have been faced with an additional 4 nights of hotel accommodation and refreshment costs which would have considerably exceeded the amount I am now seeking.

Many thanks in advance for any help and insights you can offer.

I have had a read through your post but I am just going to respond to the bit on EF. If you were looking at the seat map to determine availability you were looking at the wrong part of EF - seat maps are not a reliable way to accurately determine how may seats an airline is willing to sell on a flight.

In order to determine availability you should be looking at the Flight Availability section. Let me give you an example, let's say I am supposed to be heading from NRT to LHR today in J and for some reason I have had my travel plans disrupted and can only go tomorrow. I do a search for TYO to LHR for tomorrow on the flight availability section and these are the results:

Results from ExpertFlyer.comI look down and I can see that BA8 has 0 in all business selling classes so it is pointless me asking the agent to try and book me on that. However, BA6 is still at J6 which means BA are still willing to sell 6 seats in J selling class. Based on that I will ask the agent to book me on BA6.

Thanks Karfa; that's clear - and I was indeed looking at the seat maps.

FlyboyStu, sorry to hear about this.

I wouldn't get too fixed on the seat map situation. It is genuinely the case that in a fast moving situation - with hundreds of passengers, some of whom make and fail connections, perhaps a dozen standby passengers - that in the frenetic lead up to departure seats which appear to be available are not available. That is not to say there could have tried harder, but yes things also get overlooked due to the pressure of time. There is some anecdotal evidence that redemptions are more at risk of downgrade than revenue bookings. You did your best, but it didn't work out. And yes your other option was to stay in the Caymans until they could find some CW seats for you.

As to where you are now, yes you are entitled to both the delay cancellation and the downgrade cancellation, no question of that. Some staff do indeed believe redemptions don't get downgrade compensation, but any staff member with specialist knowledge of this area will not make that mistake, as you say it is clearly identified in the Regulation.

So your logic seems broadly correct, plus the seat fee, however note that the airline can deduct from the cash element any taxes that they would have had to pay anyway by shipping you back in WTP. So I would press for the 600€ each, 46875 Avios (the proportion that you actually paid, so not grossed up, and divided by two if it was a return trip), plus the seat fee each, and plus a reduced cash component each of about £190. The taxes for that trip are about £75.

For the 2-4-1, you effectively did use that on the WTP sections, though I accept you probably wouldn't have chosen to use it on that basis. Instead I would press for a space available upgrade on a future trip to cover that and the customer remediation aspect.

See how you get on. If the reply isn't helpful or slow, just switch to MCOL and use that as the technical means to get your money refunded.

Thanks so much CWS, that is extremely helpful. I really appreciate your assistance and insights. I had taken the reference to 'price paid' to be the total cost of outbound and return legs, but now see from your post that it applies to only the affected leg. The only thing I don't understand is how you get to the £190. The total cost of fees and taxes we paid initially was £1,083.70 plus the seat reservation fees of £68 per seat.

That's APD for you, only applicable for outbound LHR-GCM services. BA are entitled to get all of that out of you since they have to pay HMRC for your outbound. If you book a single CW from GCM then you will see the charges are only £265 (use 16 June as an example, only 1 seat though).

Understood, and fair enough I guess. From what I now understand, and from what BA have said to me, I am left with the impression that Avios and Amex 2-4-1 redemptions are more at risk of being downgraded, perhaps because there is less immediate cost for BA in so doing. However, for me at least, this significantly reduces their appeal and therefore the incentive to earn Avios points in the first place, which in turn makes me more inclined to look at other alternative carriers for my paid bookings. As you say, I would definitely not have used the voucher on a WTP booking for an overnight flight. Thanks again for your help CWS; much appreciated.

Well yes, I can see where you are coming from there. What I would say is that you're going to get quite a tidy sum back here. You paid 125k Avios, and £1300 for two approx, and you will get back about 46k Avios and £1500 back, which isn't a bad outcome, in my view. BA paid you £200 to go to the Caymans. I had a weather radar problem in Bermuda (I sat it out!) but it is a fluke when that happens.

Great perspective, and you're absolutely right. And it was a superb trip. Thanks again.

EU261 Claim advice
 

Hi, I would appreciate some advice as I have hit a stalemate with BA. My flight from MAD-LHR was cancelled and I was flown home the following day on the next available flight. BA paid for the hotel and offered to pay the incidentals.
I had flown to MAD earlier in the day and there was fog at LHR and we were delayed due to it. My flight was due to leave MAD at 1825 returning into LHR at 1945. There was no fog at LHR and all flights were operating from MAD which was unaffected by weather. BA's first response was it was due to adverse at LHR which I challenged. The second email stated there was thick fog at LHR and ATC reduced the flow rates resulting in delays and cancellations. They then go on to say it is exceptional circumstances. Recital 14 and 15 is quoted mentioning weather, strike and impact of air traffic management decisions as the reason that they do not to pay.

I would accept my flight being potentially cancelled if there was fog at the time I was due at LHR. My study of flightstats show very few delays and cancellations outside the early morning. Newspaper reports for the day show the fog had cleared by about 1000. Even this period was not heavily delayed.

I think BA are being unreasonable as they chose to cancel the plane I was due to fly and could not re-accommodate me on any flight until the following morning which resulted me in having to take an additional days holiday. The only odd thing is flightstats shows the aircraft from LHR-MAD-LHR was cancelled in the morning. This leads to the question which I am doubtful - would ATC at LHR ask airlines to reduce their flights over a whole day even when fog is due to clear? From reading this thread I know I only need to prove that the MAD-LHR flight cancellation as the inbound flight is irrelevant.

Any opinions are appreciated on my case and best way to state my case. BA have said they will not discuss it further. As the claim is only 250 Euro's I plan to use the CEDR route as it appears the fastest and least time consuming route.

Yes that can and did happen recently. Can you give the date concerned? We maybe able to find out more information.

Thanks corporate-wage-slave. The day of the flight was the 31/10/16.

According to the BA Source, this is the list of flights that didn't operate:

Which is indicative of a low level of weather related cancellations. There is also this thread with related comments:
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...ellations.html

My interpretation, is that yes there was a fog event that day, yes, there were some cancellations because of it, and you are unlikely to get very far with BA in any direct dealings with them. Your best hope is either CEDR or MCOL, and in fact I have a feeling MCOL may work better for you. However bringing this all together I don't think you have a strong case.

Hi corporate-wage-slave thanks for your research. I had followed a similar pattern with BAsource cancellations and then double checking those against flightstats. For an early foggy start there were the expected delays and cancellations early on.

What surprised me though was that the 1825 from MAD that I was on was the latest flight that day. There was no fog after 1100 so do you think this was LHR ATC asking for flights to be cancelled throughout the day?

On the 31st my flight first thing in the morning from LHR departed late to MAD (separate PNR) even though there was fog so was surprised I coudn't get back when there was no fog. I know the dedication you have made to flyertalk so respect your advice. I don't want to waste my time and others if you think there isn't a chance of a claim. is your reasoning that LHR were restricting traffic and I got unlucky to be one of the few flights cancelled later in the day?

I don't have specific insight to what happened that day (though I was partly impacted) but my understanding of the process is that ATC ask the airlines collectively to reduce flights, a consensus agreement is reached, and then it's down to the airlines concerned to decide exactly which flight is taken out. Given that LHR operates at 97% capacity, I can certainly see how cancellations in the morning can lead to backlogs all day long and therefore cancellations.

Now BA will feel they are on fairly solid ground here, so my suspicion is that after reverting to them a few times they will maintain their stance. You can certainly have another go at it, it won't cost you anything more than your time. But realistically if you strongly believe that this isn't right, and BA won't budge, you then have a decision to make as to whether to take it further.

If you then go to CEDR - that works on a "we think you're all telling the truth, so we will strike an outcome based on what we think is reasonable". The courts work on the balance of probability. So either channel will give you some scope, but particular judge may take the view that this wasn't weather, but recovering from earlier movements of out of place aircraft, caused by weather. Only a judge can make that decision, not me, and there is a bit of scope for inconsistency if we are being honest. BA have been known to fold cases if it's a bit each way too.

I guess it boils down to your appetite to take that matter on beyond BA, since I doubt that internally they're going to agree with your analysis.

Thank you for the guidance which I will act on. I appreciate your thoughts and advice.

flyoff

The answer to your question is no; the footnote to that appears in the first paragraph I've quoted above.

At LHR, ATC will reduce flow rates in poor weather. ATC will pass on to the Airport Operator the impact of those flow rates in terms of predicted delays. The Airport Operator will then either request a certain proportion of flights be cancelled by each airline, which the airlines are free to ignore, or there is a more formal process, to which all the airlines have signed up, which requires them to cancel a certain proportion of their flights.

ATC have no power to cancel flights, nor force airlines to cancel flights.

I know it may sound a bit pedantic, but this topic comes up frequently on social media; not helped by certain airlines' Twitter posts claiming this.

Heathrow Tower - Thank you very interesting

My BA85 flight to YVR a few weeks back was delayed due to baggage compartment door malfunction. Pilots made up some time so we landed 3:39 late even though we left over four hours late. .

I filed a request for EU300 reduced compensation and although it took about ten days to get a response but my request was granted on the first try.

I have a bit of a situation I'm curious about.

If I was Involuntary Denied Boarding, and received notice that I would get €600 in compensation, then was put on another flight. Let's say that the new flight was scheduled to arrive at 15.00. Subsequently, that flight was also delayed, and has an estimated arrival at 23.00 instead. Am I eligible for 1x 600 euro for the IDB and 1x 600 Euro for the late arrival/delay?

the IDB and the (replacement) late flight are two separate issues so yes you would get two sets of compensation.

I received notification by post that my claim was rejected for compensation and just left it at that as I knew it was a complex case and there was a chance it would be rejected.

However, today (around 2 weeks after I received the letter), I got an email from I assume BA's lawyers with the full case report attached. In the report it says that I did not provide detailed particulars of the claim to BA within the 14 day limit.

But I did provide BA with the details on the same day I lodged the claim with MCOL, via Customer Relations, including the MCOL claim reference and BA replied saying they would be used for the case. It's a little annoying as through MCOL it was hard to explain my case due to the word limit so the details I submitted to BA were very important.

Is there anything I can do about this now that the judgement has been made?

Can you perhaps clarify a few things? Who sent the notification referred to in your first paragraph? Was it the courts or BA? Have you had a Notice of Allocation? The two weeks you refer to seems to relate to the acknowledgement of service, which BA handles not you, and to which you have already said they have invoked.

Here is a simplified description of the process, perhaps you could indicate where you have got to?

http://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/law.../small-claims/

It's possible, incidentally, that the courts haven't passed on the particulars of claim, which I guess is the bit you said was restricted in terms of word length. But you are able to append a separate sheet, and that you post into the courts, and there is a 2 weeks limit on doing that. But if the core details are in the box you filled in, then BA can't use that line.

Just went back through the documents I received.

Claim was raised on 17/1/17
I received a letter by post dated 2/2/17 from Norton Rose Fullbright advising that they would be defending the claim (apologies I read it wrong as it being rejected outright)
Then today I received an email from the same company with the full court case rejecting my claim

I just had a skim of the link you provided (very useful, thanks!) and I feel it was me who made the mistake in giving the detailed particulars. I completed the detailed particulars of the claim through the online form on BA's website. Customer Relations replied saying they acknowledged this and 'would be happy to provide this information when they contact us directly.' I wasn't aware I should have sent this by post.

OK, and what happened to the Notice of Allocation? Did you receive that? In form N1 I am fairly sure you have to put something, so my apologies but I am still struggling to understand what happened here.

I have never received the Notification of Allocation, just the acknowledgement of service and final judgement today

OK, ring the court and ask them what happened. A number of aspects here don't make sense to me, but without a Notice of Allocation I can't see how there was a Judgement.

Quite an interesting article, which I believe hasn't been discussed here:

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/articl...y-compensation

Two airlines relevant here, in view of the BA codeshares (etc) are that AA are in the naughty corner (which surprises me somewhat) along with Vueling (which does not). One key aspect is whether airlines are using a dispute resolution process, which BA is via CEDR. For VY the report says:

Ba and eu261
 

Hi

can anyone help me with telling me whether BA are right or doing the fobbing off route?

i flew from accra to london and was delayed by four hours. BA are saying the delay was caused due to checks necessitated by a heavy landing and so this is extraordinary circumstances.

i am not convinced but need to know what others think. if i put a complaint through their arbitration and it fails it costs me 25 pounds whereas if i do it through one of these no win no fee things i at least do not pay if it fails.

what are my chances?


Thanks

They are trying it on, that is inherent activity, and certainly not Extraordinary as defined. Follow the MCOL route outlined in the main EC261 thread, available via the Dashboard. I would not recommend CEDR in this scenario.

the date and flight numbers would be useful.

Frankly, doesn't matter at all. A heavy landing is not an excuse not to pay EC261. No matter what the date, route, destination etc.

In my humble opinion, BA say no to all claims for compensation. A heavy landing is not uncommon, and is not extraordinary circumstances. Other threads here will tell you that often they will not pay out until threatened with the small claims court. Go through the process, get names and job titles of everyone you speak to, get to a Letter before action, and launch a small claims court action. You can research this by looking at existing threads.

I was asking so people could look up the details to provide accurate advice.

Many claimed 4 hour delays aren't 4 hour delays at all but a lot less due to perception of time.

ba78 from accra to london last saturday

Agreed, but BA rejected the claim based on force majeur not covered by EC261 instead of simply saying the flight was not delayed enough. I made a deduction. I agree details always help but sometimes also cloud the issue.

Hard landing is within the control of the airline / normal operational issues so compensation is due.

You are being fobbed off. I would not mess around here. The time for playing Mr. Nice Guy with BA is long gone.

Send a short and concise letter, prominently headed "NOTICE OF INTENDED COURT ACTION", giving them 7 days to pay, then file the claim.

Edit: I notice the thread has been amalgamated. My advice pertains to hmlg's flight from Accra.