B747 Crew Sleeping Quarters
Feb 23, 2011, 6:30 pm
#31
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
Besides, lack of regulation on duty hours for surgeons does not mean it is prudent to work excessive hours, particularly if it is done repeatedly.
Besides, you could look at it this way - should pilots be expected to work the hours surgeons do, just because surgeons can? I don't think that would be a good idea, personally. If surgeons are killing someone through fatigue, and it is a widespread problem (as opposed to a very isolated case), then their working hours regulations need to be reviewed.
Last edited by LTN Phobia; Feb 23, 2011 at 7:32 pm
Feb 23, 2011, 6:47 pm
#33
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,613
As an aside, I was talking to a BA Captain a few weeks ago, and he told me they are limited to 40 hours a month. Lazy gits! I did 69 hours last week.
He was saying they like doing the longer routes, as it means they only do 2 returns a month, and get the rest of the time off!
I want to be a pilot even more...
Cheers,
Rick
He was saying they like doing the longer routes, as it means they only do 2 returns a month, and get the rest of the time off!
I want to be a pilot even more...
Cheers,
Rick
Feb 23, 2011, 6:49 pm
#34
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Boston MA
Programs: Delta Platinum, Delta Million Miler,Hilton Lifetime Diamond, Hertz Presidents Circle, Delta Sky Club
Posts: 663
Feb 23, 2011, 6:58 pm
#35
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
As an aside, I was talking to a BA Captain a few weeks ago, and he told me they are limited to 40 hours a month. Lazy gits! I did 69 hours last week.
He was saying they like doing the longer routes, as it means they only do 2 returns a month, and get the rest of the time off!
I want to be a pilot even more...
Cheers,
Rick
He was saying they like doing the longer routes, as it means they only do 2 returns a month, and get the rest of the time off!
I want to be a pilot even more...
Cheers,
Rick
No break let alone bunk time, 11-13-hour duties, short turnarounds, with rubbish crew food that a self-respecting cat wouldn't eat - that's more of a reality for most pilots as many airlines try to squeeze more and more out of the minimum possible crew.
Feb 23, 2011, 7:00 pm
#36
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kent, UK
Programs: BA Gold, SPG Platinum, Marriott Platinum, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 3,809
Feb 23, 2011, 7:20 pm
#37
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Quite close to NQY
Programs: BAEC Silver,clubcard,clubcard plus, BA Amex................ And Mucci x3 ;)
Posts: 9,488
times are changing in many jobs now!
I for one, think that crew should have the facilities and they should be encouraged to make good use of them !
there was once a time when ambulance stations & fire stations had facilities to bed down, now were lucky to be on station for our breaks, most of the time were sent somewhere with facilities to have our breaks and not back to the station, its certainly not unheard of to be out for an entire shift.
as for my hosemonkey friends, well down here only 2 stations in the county are day and night manned. There is talk that the night manned stations will be having beds removed as they dont want to be paying people to sleep ! In the rest of the county they dont have night cover, they rely on guys to turn out of their own beds and get to the station before turning out! very scary stuff and dangerous if you ask me!
ill openly admit that when i/we get the chance at work for a crafty 10/20/30 min snooze we grab it with open arms. most often though its while were parked up some place providing cover or while my sidekick is driving us back from a job or back from hospital etc
long shifts take it out of you, especially when your busy and concentrating and responsible for peoples safetly. Proper breaks are a must and people work much better after a rest and even better still after some food and a snooze!
give the crew a break, especially the ones who post on FT
cs
I for one, think that crew should have the facilities and they should be encouraged to make good use of them !
there was once a time when ambulance stations & fire stations had facilities to bed down, now were lucky to be on station for our breaks, most of the time were sent somewhere with facilities to have our breaks and not back to the station, its certainly not unheard of to be out for an entire shift.
as for my hosemonkey friends, well down here only 2 stations in the county are day and night manned. There is talk that the night manned stations will be having beds removed as they dont want to be paying people to sleep ! In the rest of the county they dont have night cover, they rely on guys to turn out of their own beds and get to the station before turning out! very scary stuff and dangerous if you ask me!
ill openly admit that when i/we get the chance at work for a crafty 10/20/30 min snooze we grab it with open arms. most often though its while were parked up some place providing cover or while my sidekick is driving us back from a job or back from hospital etc
long shifts take it out of you, especially when your busy and concentrating and responsible for peoples safetly. Proper breaks are a must and people work much better after a rest and even better still after some food and a snooze!
give the crew a break, especially the ones who post on FT
cs
Feb 23, 2011, 9:52 pm
#38
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Middle Earth, and often worse
Programs: BAEC Silver, A3 Gold
Posts: 2,219
The comments regarding a rest period during the break period are "spot on" and explain the reason why USAF crew on C-5A freighters have such a nice area to rest/play cards,etc and also have a separate sleeping area.
A former crew chief that flew "body-runs" from Iraq to Dover AFB explained how crew had shift changes and where they rested, etc..
A former crew chief that flew "body-runs" from Iraq to Dover AFB explained how crew had shift changes and where they rested, etc..
Feb 24, 2011, 12:56 am
#39
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,065
I don't think anyone is debating that its a long day - a tough job - but there are folks that work equally long hours and also have challenging jobs - but their employer does not provide them with a bed for rest during their shift. Many of the same people (passengers) who are on a flight for five hours, then get off the plane and go straight to work - some for up to 12 or 14 hours more doing installs, working on hospital equipment etc. Now the government, union contracts, etc might mandate or provide for such breaks, but to infer that cabin crews work in some unique situation (ie they are the only ones of the all working folk to have long hours) is a little silly. By that logic, a surgeon should be napping several times a day, as his/her job is pretty important - they can be working long hours (some sugeries can go for 8+ hours of very intense concentration) they might work all day and be on call all night, etc. But as we know, nap time is certainly not the norm in hospitals
The simple reason that the bunks are there is that many flights would be impossible without the provision of horizontal rest. This is mandated by the law, a law which is based on much scientific study of things such as: working at altitude, circadian rhythms, jet lag, avoidance of long term fatigue (fatigue being a very different thing from feeling tired.)
A modern airliner is capable of flying for a much longer period than the crew can remain at work without mandated rest. Companies could stop crews from resting but that would mean that the plane would land more often for a crew change.
The broad brush stuff of CAP 371 is 100 hours Flight Duty in 28 days and 900 flight duty hours in a year.
The EU are trying to change all of this and to switch the rules to something based on no science and considerably less restrictive. Those of you that seem annoyed by crew resting will be pleased with this. Though you may not be quite so happy with the resultant degradation in your safety while flying.
Feb 24, 2011, 3:05 am
#40
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,024
This is a interesting post.
Last year I decided to shadow Mrs Sox during a back to back trip. LHR - East Coast USA - LHR 24 hour break LHR - East Coast USA - LHR. I also had to drive to the airport both ways and no drinking when on duty!!
The rules were simple. Y seat for me, no lounge and only be allowed to rest when the crew rested/just her break. As it turned out I was on a jump seat by the door for 3 of the 4 sectors. This meant I was stood for alot of the time as I was often in the way!!
If anyone doubts if cc deserve a break/rest I urge you to shadow one on a back to back. It is fair to say that your body has no idea where it is half the time. Even a 30 minute nap felt so good!!
Later this year I plan to do the same on a long range route with the same rules being followed.
Last year I decided to shadow Mrs Sox during a back to back trip. LHR - East Coast USA - LHR 24 hour break LHR - East Coast USA - LHR. I also had to drive to the airport both ways and no drinking when on duty!!
The rules were simple. Y seat for me, no lounge and only be allowed to rest when the crew rested/just her break. As it turned out I was on a jump seat by the door for 3 of the 4 sectors. This meant I was stood for alot of the time as I was often in the way!!
If anyone doubts if cc deserve a break/rest I urge you to shadow one on a back to back. It is fair to say that your body has no idea where it is half the time. Even a 30 minute nap felt so good!!
Later this year I plan to do the same on a long range route with the same rules being followed.
Feb 24, 2011, 4:32 am
#41
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Boston MA
Programs: Delta Platinum, Delta Million Miler,Hilton Lifetime Diamond, Hertz Presidents Circle, Delta Sky Club
Posts: 663
I love this old hackneyed argument. Essentially it says "Other people do stupid things - therefore so should you"
The simple reason that the bunks are there is that many flights would be impossible without the provision of horizontal rest. This is mandated by the law, a law which is based on much scientific study of things such as: working at altitude, circadian rhythms, jet lag, avoidance of long term fatigue (fatigue being a very different thing from feeling tired.)
A modern airliner is capable of flying for a much longer period than the crew can remain at work without mandated rest. Companies could stop crews from resting but that would mean that the plane would land more often for a crew change.
The broad brush stuff of CAP 371 is 100 hours Flight Duty in 28 days and 900 flight duty hours in a year.
The EU are trying to change all of this and to switch the rules to something based on no science and considerably less restrictive. Those of you that seem annoyed by crew resting will be pleased with this. Though you may not be quite so happy with the resultant degradation in your safety while flying.
The simple reason that the bunks are there is that many flights would be impossible without the provision of horizontal rest. This is mandated by the law, a law which is based on much scientific study of things such as: working at altitude, circadian rhythms, jet lag, avoidance of long term fatigue (fatigue being a very different thing from feeling tired.)
A modern airliner is capable of flying for a much longer period than the crew can remain at work without mandated rest. Companies could stop crews from resting but that would mean that the plane would land more often for a crew change.
The broad brush stuff of CAP 371 is 100 hours Flight Duty in 28 days and 900 flight duty hours in a year.
The EU are trying to change all of this and to switch the rules to something based on no science and considerably less restrictive. Those of you that seem annoyed by crew resting will be pleased with this. Though you may not be quite so happy with the resultant degradation in your safety while flying.
Feb 24, 2011, 4:38 am
#42
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Home: East Mids UK - Work (Base): Accra, Ghana.
Programs: BAEC: Silver - Marriott: Titanium
Posts: 12,086
I don't think anyone is debating that its a long day - a tough job - but there are folks that work equally long hours and also have challenging jobs - but their employer does not provide them with a bed for rest during their shift. Many of the same people (passengers) who are on a flight for five hours, then get off the plane and go straight to work - some for up to 12 or 14 hours more doing installs, working on hospital equipment etc. Now the government, union contracts, etc might mandate or provide for such breaks, but to infer that cabin crews work in some unique situation (ie they are the only ones of the all working folk to have long hours) is a little silly. By that logic, a surgeon should be napping several times a day, as his/her job is pretty important - they can be working long hours (some sugeries can go for 8+ hours of very intense concentration) they might work all day and be on call all night, etc. But as we know, nap time is certainly not the norm in hospitals.
Probably because their employes it not legally obliged to. CAA rules state that on duties over X hours require the crew to have a period of X hours horizontal rest. BA don't do it out of the kindness of their heart, they do it because they have to.
Feb 24, 2011, 4:41 am
#43
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Boston MA
Programs: Delta Platinum, Delta Million Miler,Hilton Lifetime Diamond, Hertz Presidents Circle, Delta Sky Club
Posts: 663
100% agree - I actually wrote that just a few lines down.
Feb 24, 2011, 4:45 am
#44
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
It's just that they have a potential to kill lots of people at once if things go wrong, and they have additional environmental issues (noise, dehydration, vibration, etc) in the workplace, and often the only way a very long range flight can be operated legally is through provisions of bunks on board. I recommend you read CAP 371 as it provides some background information and flight time limitation schemes.
Anyway, wouldn't you rather be flown by non-fatigued, non-tired crew?
No-one has said that flight crew work harder than anyone else - I know I work more than most of them and have even flown more than most of them, but I would still rather be flown by non-fatigued, non-tired crew even if I am feeling absolutely knackered, and I for one am glad that the UK has the CAP 371, even though it's not perfect by any means - and I hope that the UK gets to keep it, instead of having to adapt the EASA EU-OPS, which I have witnessed to be far more lenient and has a much higher likelihood of crew fatigue than does under CAP 371.
Feb 24, 2011, 4:50 am
#45
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Boston MA
Programs: Delta Platinum, Delta Million Miler,Hilton Lifetime Diamond, Hertz Presidents Circle, Delta Sky Club
Posts: 663
I don't think that is what Waterhorse was trying to say.
It's just that they have a potential to kill lots of people at once if things go wrong, and they have additional environmental issues (noise, dehydration, vibration, etc) in the workplace, and often the only way a very long range flight can be operated legally is through provisions of bunks on board. I recommend you read CAP 371 as it provides some background information and flight time limitation schemes.
Anyway, wouldn't you rather be flown by non-fatigued, non-tired crew?
No-one has said that flight crew work harder than anyone else - I know I work more than most of them and have even flown more than most of them, but I would still rather be flown by non-fatigued, non-tired crew even if I am feeling absolutely knackered, and I for one am glad that the UK has the CAP 371, even though it's not perfect by any means - and I hope that the UK gets to keep it, instead of having to adapt the EASA EU-OPS, which I have witnessed to be far more lenient and has a much higher likelihood of crew fatigue than does under CAP 371.
It's just that they have a potential to kill lots of people at once if things go wrong, and they have additional environmental issues (noise, dehydration, vibration, etc) in the workplace, and often the only way a very long range flight can be operated legally is through provisions of bunks on board. I recommend you read CAP 371 as it provides some background information and flight time limitation schemes.
Anyway, wouldn't you rather be flown by non-fatigued, non-tired crew?
No-one has said that flight crew work harder than anyone else - I know I work more than most of them and have even flown more than most of them, but I would still rather be flown by non-fatigued, non-tired crew even if I am feeling absolutely knackered, and I for one am glad that the UK has the CAP 371, even though it's not perfect by any means - and I hope that the UK gets to keep it, instead of having to adapt the EASA EU-OPS, which I have witnessed to be far more lenient and has a much higher likelihood of crew fatigue than does under CAP 371.
)Yes, I fully agree with people being well rested to perform whatever job they are employed to do - it only makes sense. What doesn't make sense to me is that sense of 'we have it harder than other working folks.' I appreciate your post, and will take a look at your suggested reading.
Last edited by sweeper20; Feb 24, 2011 at 4:55 am