JER turnaround to avoid APD on a 2-4-1: will this work?
 

I am working on what has rapidly spiralled into a rather complex plan of transits and turnarounds in order to mitigate some £276 of APD on an upcoming 2-4-1 journey. It involves leveraging off an existing 2-4-1 and taking advantage of a paid LGW arrival. I’d love to hear your comments, thoughts or suggestions as to improve or fine tune (or nix) it. Apologies in advance for the lengthy post, but I wanted to set out all of my thinking to make sure that I hadn’t misunderstood anything and to make it clear as possible so that if there is a better way of doing this, you can tell me!

Background: we used to live in the UK but have moved back to New Zealand. However, from our time in the UK, we have two unspent ex-UK Amex 2-4-1s. I am trying to use them for a 2014 Christmas holiday and a 2015 summer holiday in Europe.

We currently have a 2-4-1 booked in January which starts LHR-HKG, and then returns in June NRT-LHR. [Query 1: we are actually starting this journey GIB-LHR to connect in transit to the LHR-HKG, but my attempts at asking YouFirst to tack on the GIB-LHR leg to the start of the already ticketed 2-4-1 in order to avoid the APD was rejected by YouFirst saying that GIB-LHR would change the zone and couldn’t be done. I admit I was pushing the envelope in the first place (I was going to argue that Gibraltar is technically part of the UK as I thought that would be why they would reject) but does anyone know if this is possible?]

After we return to the UK in June 2015, we will be flying around Europe on paid tickets. The end of our holiday in Europe has us in DBV, so I was looking at a DBV-LGW arriving LGW at 1405. The original plan was then to fly LHR-AUH, using my second 2-4-1, the next morning at 0940. Because DBV-LGW and LHR-AUH are on separate tickets and there is seemingly no easy way to persuade BA to issue them as conjunction tickets, APD applies to the LHR-AUH leg notwithstanding we are stopping for less than 24 hours in London.

However, I am now thinking of whether it is possible (or sensible) to squeeze in a JER turnaround and avoid the APD. This is made even more tempting by the fact that I could (I think) leverage the free domestic add-on to the Avios redemptions, and there is little positioning cost involved as we will be at LGW anyway.

(First 2-4-1) NRT-LHR
[intervening jollies around Europe]
(Paid) DBV-LGW arriving 1405
(First 2-4-1) LGW-JER departing 1740
(Second 2-4-1) JER-LGW departing 1915 (same plane turnaround)
(Second 2-4-1) LHR-AUH departing 0940+1

If I understand the rules correctly, I do need to pay additional fuel fines and surcharges for both JER legs. This comes to about £56 per person. I was considering tagging the LGW-JER leg to my GIB-LHR positioning flight (by using Avios instead of paying for a cash fare) to save £39 on the outbound, but this seems a not-great return on Avios: factoring in the RFS cash contribution and the loss of 1,000 Avios earned on a cash fare, it would be a return of ~0.8p/Avios. Then again, cash is cash… I’m really quite indecisive about this choice here. [Query 2: are my assumptions right/do my numbers sound wildly off?]

Assuming we do go ahead with this, the next step is to figure out the logistics of the turn. We will be arriving from DBV with checked bags, and are non-EU passport holders. I am currently thinking that the best way will be to fly DBV-LGW as if LGW were my final destination, and enter the UK and uplift bags as per normal. We can then walk over to the Premier Inn North Terminal, check into our room for the night and drop the bags off, before returning to the terminal and going airside. The other options I was considering were:

(a) We go through flight transfers with mobile boarding passes and fly LGW-JER-LGW. Bags are tagged at DBV to go DBV-LGW only, and are left to go unclaimed at LGW until the pax return from their JER turn; or

(b) We go through flight transfers and fly LGW-JER-LGW. Bags are tagged DBV-LGW-JER-LGW (is this even possible? Also am uneasy about the bags not being reloaded in JER).

but neither of them seem wholly satisfactory to me, mainly because it sounds like it involves a lot of explaining or the risk of checked bags going astray.

My only concern with my preferred option at the moment is that in order to allow us enough time to clear Border Farce and check into the hotel, we will be on the last turn of the night to JER so if the plane goes mechanical at JER, we will be stranded.

Query 3: From memory a same plane turnaround in JER is quite easy - step off the plane, go straight into the lounge, await reboarding but as I have only ever arrived in JER and not done a turn, confirmation would be appreciated.

Query 4: Both 2-4-1s are in First. Will the JER add-on book into Club or Euro Traveller?

So, the upshot of the way the tickets would work is:
First 2-4-1: LHR-HKG // NRT-LON-xJER
Second 2-4-1: JER-LON-AUH

Query 5: Can I book my 2-4-1 LHR-AUH online now and call in to add a JER-LGW leg later?

Even factoring in the extra £56 per person in extra fuel fines and taxes, I would still come out ahead with savings of £164. Not to mention another £70-100 being the savings from staying the night at Gatwick rather than central London, which is where we would probably end up if we were to stick to the “essential flying only” itinerary which had us getting into London from DBV at 2 pm.

I would probably do this no question if it was just me with no checked bags, but I will be travelling with the +1 and while she isn’t necessarily averse to the idea, I wonder whether in the end the logistics of making sure that everything ends up where it is supposed to be might be worth just sucking up the £164 to HMRC, as much as it sticks in my craw.

What would you do? (and in particular, would you bolt the LGW-JER leg on to the end of the long-haul NRT-LHR or to the end of a RFS GIB-LHR?)

Whilst part of me respects your ingenuity, the other part of me has to ask is it really worth it for a couple of hundred quid?! Personally, it wouldn't be

Gibraltar is not part of the United Kingdom - it's a British Overseas Territory which is a subtly different entity. Therefore GIB-LHR is not a domestic flight and you need to pay the Avios if, for argument's sake, you wanted to make a reward booking. By your logic a flight from Bermuda would be a domestic flight too - sadly, not the case!

Companion voucher bookings, IIRC, must originate and finish in the United Kingdom.

Jersey is a Cat 1 airport notorious for fog & low cloud. Quite apart from the idea of pressuring some DBV agent to round trip check your bags (and then to expect them to actually be reloaded in time in JER - why would you even contemplate this when you can just leave them at LGW?), I reckon you'd be nuts to contemplate this schedule DBV/LGW/JER/LGW for the savings suggested vs the losses incurred (and justifiable ire of your +1!) if you miss your return trip.

Re GIB, I guess before the hand over you'd have tried for a free HKG-is-in-the-UK add-on?

Sorry, but there's cost effective sensible planning, there's pushing it and there's taking the p---, and I'd suggest that with many of your ideas you are in danger of being seen in the last of those categories!

Neither is JER, but you can definitely start "ex UK" Amex 2-4-1 redemptions there to avoid APD!

EDIT: see previous threads
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...iding-apd.html
and
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/briti...te-ticket.html

Too high a risk of disruption and missed connection. Particularly when involving JER.

If you did anything like LGW-JER to start JER-LGW/LHR-AUH, with a straight turnaround and you had the LGW-JER cancelled, BA may not be prepared to rebook you at all for JER-LGW/LHR-AUH since it could be a "no show" (and certainly within 24 hour no-change period) (they probably won't rebook you, given an "illegal" connection at JER), and even if you are lucky and BA are prepared to rebook you, you can't expect them to do so in a revenue class and availability of 2 award seats may be days (or weeks) away. Having to forfeit your Avios booking and having to make a last minute ticket purchase becomes a distinct possibility if something goes wrong.

Your travel insurance will almost certainly not cover you either, given an "illegal" connection.

If you are saving thousands of £ by doing this, I can understand it, sort of. But for c. £200? I really don't think it's worth the risk.

To be honest my husband would get a SEVERE telling off if he suggested doing anything like that to save a couple of hundred quid - what does that work out to be? 7 hours to literally waste for two persons for £164 saving - that's £11.72 per hour per person. For all the hassle and risk? Definitely not worth it, is it?

If you don't like the APD that much, you could always save on it by flying Y...

Sorry, but why are you wasting to much time to save what is in relation to a free first class ticket a miniscule amount of money. be happy you can use your 2-4-1 and leave it at that.

"Free first class ticket"? £1000?* "miniscule" ? :confused:

* the total taxes/fees/charges on my Amex 2-4-1 redemption LON-NYC-LON

considering the cost of an F ticket it sure is! could fly economy if that is too much to pay and apd would be lower, sorry but you can't have it both ways

"Smaller", yes; "miniscule", no:

http://i61.tinypic.com/f9hagy.png

What would I do? I'd pay my bloody taxes!

I am all for dodging around to save a few thousand pounds on intercontinental tickets but if you are unable to make £164 for less effort than this then you better go back to school. Even a weekend flipping hamburgers would be easier than this. This is a complete waste of effort and logic, before we get on to risk assessment.

Now I know your craw is shared by many others, including tax dodgers like Starbucks and Amazon, but APD is how you contribute to society. Whether it's for schools, hospitals, welfare to the disabled, defence of the realm, policing, international aid to the Third World, paying for the Commonwealth Secretariat, whatever. Realistically, if you were state educated in the UK, there is a chunk of our national debt with your name on it. If you don't pay for it via APD, then you'll (or rather we) pay for it via VAT, death duties, CGT, stamp duty, income tax, you name it. Complete abolition of APD would, for example, require petrol prices to go up by around 5 pence a litre, which affects those who can't afford to go flying off to Narita in First. Those who know me will be able to confirm that this perspective isn't written by a Marxist.

It's is not "their" money, HMRC's money, or "the government's money", it's our money.

To be fair it is the APD which is the issue here not the overall cost of a first class ticket or the total of taxes & charges needed on a reward flight. I think going exEU or exJER to save several hundered if not thousands of pounds for a cash ticket is one thing, going exJER just to save on APD (is it £138 these days?) seems not to be worth the hassle.

Fully agree with C-W-S.
I must admit that I find it intriguing that OP (or anyone else) would go to the trouble & expense of arranging the BA F experience (which promises more comfort and less hassle) and then trash the whole thing for the sake of a few quid. For example, even if it did work, there's a full day's travel ex DBV ending in a stressful scramble to Jersey and back, then he and his +1 grab a few hours sleep in a cheap hotel at LGW before getting up, at I'd guess 0500 (assuming the M25 is its usual peak hour parking lot), to make the 0940 LHR/AUH without any time to enjoy the best of BA's ground hospitality at T5.
A bit like buying a Ferrari and then putting it through the automatic car wash.
I can only assume it's the Del Boy satisfaction of "the deal" rather than a desire to travel in comfort at a reasonable price?

I'm sorry, but how tight?!?

Thanks for all your comments especially LTN Phobia - the risk of bad weather and IRROPS is precisely why I ran it past you all here.

If I was originating ex-London I wouldn't even contemplate doing this as you all rightly point out, it's a lot of effort to avoid paying just a couple of hundred quid. But the main factors were (a) we are going to have "dead" time in London anyway between arriving from DBV and leaving for AUH the next morning; (b) we were going to be at LGW anyway (so no positioning required) and (c) given that I'm only in transit and wouldn't have to pay APD if it were all on the same ticket, I find it a bit irritating that I do just because they're separate. But HMRC makes the rules and so be it.

Also re the GIB leg - I wasn't trying to get it added on for free by claiming it was a UK domestic add on; it was more trying to get it on the same ticket which would have eliminated the APD. I would have been happy to pay the going RFS rate for two for the add on. I thought BA would refuse the change because as someone pointed out, the T&Cs say that your 2-4-1 has to originate and end in the UK, of which Gibraltar is technically not part, but I thought I might be able to push my luck by trying to say that the UK (for the purposes of the T&Cs) could conceivably include Gibraltar (just as it includes JER), especially as BA's own booking engine says "Gibraltar (UK)". My surprise was that they didn't cite that at as a reason at all for not being able to do it, but rather that it would change the zone.

I shall go and get my sanity checked now :D