For those of us who only transit LHR, rather than start or end our journeys there, is there any way to avoid being hit for APD if you are forced to book on two (or more) tickets, one of which does start at LHR?
Example: (UK) BAPP 2-4-1 redemption: to use this, I have to book starting from LHR. However, my journey will start outside the UK, I'll therefore be flying on two tickets:
xxx-LHR (ticket 1 outbound leg)
LHR-yyy-LHR (ticket 2, booked with Amex 2-4-1)
LHR-xxx (return leg of ticket 1)
In addition to the time related criteria, the agreement for carriage must be evidenced by a ticket which must show the:
airport from which the passenger intends to depart
date and time of his intended departure, and
airport at which he intends to arrive
The connected flights must be detailed on the same ticket or conjunction tickets to qualify for the exemption. Tickets can only be regarded as conjunction tickets if:
a. they are in one booklet, or
b. where they are in separate booklets:
each refers to the other and states that they are to be read in conjunction, or
there is a summary of the flights constituting the passengers journey including the flights in question.
Although the flights may meet all the other criteria for determining whether two flights are connected, they will only qualify for the exemption if the connection is evidenced on the ticket or a flight summary.
'Scheduled time' means the time indicated in the operator’s timetable for the flight at the time of issue.
'Scheduled day of arrival/departure' means the day of arrival/departure indicated in the operator’s timetable when the ticket was issued.
How can I get these tickets issued in a way that lets me avoid paying the APD that, as far as I can tell, ought not to be levied on my (overall) journey.
I think the key phrase is "conjunction tickets" but since the rules talk about "booklets" (??!) I'm struggling slightly...
...or am I simply SOL and have to accept APD as an "enhancement" of any Amex 2-4-1 redemption?
This is getting to look like a TP run ... except it's a redemption so earns zero TPs (and no Avios either)! There is, to be blunt, zero chance of my wife agreeing to an idiotic scheme like this.
However, I think it sounds fun.... and my son is mad about flying. Maybe he and I should use my 2-4-1 instead!
Last edited by shorthauldad; Jan 5, 13 at 7:16 am..
I like flying but I'm not sure I'd be keen to do that given no TP and the LGW-LHR switch.
But good luck if you do go for it!
I've just priced it up to get to JFK in F, one-way with the 2-4-1 redemption to keep things simple (no real need to via JER on the return?):
xxx-LHR = reward flight saver x 2
LHR-JFK in F for 2 using 2-4-1 = 60k + £690 taxes/fees including the APD
(return would be) LHR-xxx = reward flight saver x 2
vs.
xxx-LGW-JER = reward flight saver x 2
JER-LGW/LHR-JFK in F for 2 using 2-4-1 = 60k + £427 taxes/fees having avoided APD i.e. a saving of £264
(return would be) LHR-xxx = reward flight saver = 2
If I've understood it right, Reward Flight Savers to/from LHR are the same as to/from JER, so it looks like the JER detour saves the £264 while the only extra costs incurred are (a) the (significant) extra time, (b) a LGW-LHR transfer on the outbound, and (c) perhaps an overnight in a hotel somewhere en route, depending on flight timings!
To those more au fait with APD, is this actually correct?
On 2 revenue tickets, a good travel agent can combine the tickets in a single PNR and only charge fees and taxes end-to-end. Taking MUC-LHR-JFK and back in J as an example, you'll not pay APD at all and YQ will be EUR 260 instead of GBP 319. Double whammy home-market ripoff.
A redemption like the AX 2-4-1 has as a condition that you are a UK resident and that travel starts in the UK. No way around it apart from the JER trick, and that's a very significant effort to save a few quid.
Based in MUC, I'm surprised you don't have the BA Barclaycard 2-4-1's.
Edit: just seen your last post. Correct, lower fees despite the YQ still being UK-loaded.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorthauldad
To those more au fait with APD, is this actually correct?
yep that is correct, the uk connection does have to be within 24 hours for this to work though.
JER works better if you are booking wt+ and mfu to CW the JER legs normally book into full J you get the 40TP each way and it normally costs no extra or a saving on the normal uk price.
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Why not just pay the APD due and have the smug satisfaction that you have saved the planet?
Fantastic idea.
In fact, I'll go one better (I'm in a generous mood tonight). I'll let you pay it on our behalf, then you can have all the planet-saving-satisfaction all to yourself... PM your c/card details and I'll take care of the rest
Why not just pay the APD due and have the smug satisfaction that you have saved the planet?
Fantastic idea.
In fact, I'll go one better (I'm in a generous mood tonight). I'll let you pay it on our behalf, then you can have all the planet-saving-satisfaction all to yourself... PM your c/card details and I'll take care of the rest
Can I use my debit card instead, I want to avoid the £4.50 credit card fee
I must admit the world doesn't seem to be much safer since APD was introduced, perhaps us Brits cannot change the world after all.
Good luck with your quest btw.
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I think the key phrase is "conjunction tickets" but since the rules talk about "booklets" (??!) I'm struggling slightly...
...or am I simply SOL and have to accept APD as an "enhancement" of any Amex 2-4-1 redemption?
From IATA
Conjunction Ticket means a ticket issued to a passenger in conjunction with another ticket which together constitute a single contract of carriage
In order to be exempt APD, you need effectively a through booking. If you purchase a ticket that starts where APD is due, then it is due regardless of having purchased another ticket to that airport within 24 hours
If these 2 fares allow end-on-end ticketing, you can purchase a ticket combining the 2 fares to create a single ticketed itinerary which would then provide option to do so
I doubt very much that a 2-4-1 can be combined with another fare to get the single ticket so , if you start from an airport where APD is due, I would expect that you will have to pay it
If you purchase a ticket that starts where APD is due, then it is due regardless of having purchased another ticket to that airport within 24 hours
Unless it was two tickets issued at the same time AND each ticket refers to each other and the two are therefore seen as a conjunction ticket (NB: I have almost no idea what I'm talking about, but to the layman, that's what the rules appear to say).
Except how would anyone actually this actually issued? Do you need a tame TA? Do you need to be a TA? Do you need to work at BA or Amadeus?!
Quote:
If these 2 fares allow end-on-end ticketing, you can purchase a ticket combining the 2 fares to create a single ticketed itinerary which would then provide option to do so
I understand that some fares don't allow end-to-end ticketing, but how does this apply to pure redemptions?
If I find a cheap single cash ticket, say VCE-LGW, and a cheap single, LHR-ARN, I understand that I can't simply demand that BA sell it to me as one ticket VCE-LGW,LHR-ARN. That's fine.
For redemptions there aren't any "fare rules" as such, though, are there? (If there are, where are they?!)
In what situations can multiple single redemptions NOT be combined into a longer single ticketed itinerary?
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avoiding APD...
I hope those who live in the UK copy threads like this to their MP.
The current level of APD is utterly ridiculous and so high that it effectively stifles growth.
Yet again a tax is justified on "green" grounds at a low starting rate (APD was £10 when it started), but is soon hijacked as an easy revenue raiser and we in the UK end up with the ridiculous rates that we have today,
I personally now start all my long distance travel outside the UK, but have to fly there and back to do this! How green is that?
Yet the saga goes on and UK politicians are addicted to taxes.
UK politicians are pushing for minimum rates of alcohol duty. They are already saying that it would be shame if any increase went to the retailer rather than the government! If this goes through, expect Scotch and other spirits to be £50 a bottle very soon. Oh, and surprised comments from politicians as bing drinking is worse. In fact just as bad as Sweden which follows similarly misguided policies!
Unless it was two tickets issued at the same time AND each ticket refers to each other and the two are therefore seen as a conjunction ticket (NB: I have almost no idea what I'm talking about, but to the layman, that's what the rules appear to say).
To the layman it is , I suggest, quite simple
Buy a ticket from A-LHR-B where the connection time in London is < 24 hours , then no APD is due
Otherwise APD is due
The layman doesn't need to know the precise definitions
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorthauldad
Except how would anyone actually this actually issued? Do you need a tame TA? Do you need to be a TA? Do you need to work at BA or Amadeus?!
Can be quite easy. aa.com , for example, does it automatically when looking for the lowest fare. Doing a dummy booking LHR-SYD r/t, it priced up using 2 fares , the OLXUKJB fare for LHR-LAX r/t plus the OC0QP1Y LAX-SYD r/t. Although these are 2 separate fares and could be issued as 2 separate itineraries, it has been combined to form 1 journey and taxes are charged accordingly plus all protections of a single booking apply
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorthauldad
I understand that some fares don't allow end-to-end ticketing, but how does this apply to pure redemptions?
My understanding is that award flights cannot be combined with paid fares
I hope those who live in the UK copy threads like this to their MP.
The current level of APD is utterly ridiculous and so high that it effectively stifles growth.
Yet again a tax is justified on "green" grounds at a low starting rate (APD was £10 when it started), but is soon hijacked as an easy revenue raiser and we in the UK end up with the ridiculous rates that we have today,
I personally now start all my long distance travel outside the UK, but have to fly there and back to do this! How green is that?
Yet the saga goes on and UK politicians are addicted to taxes.
UK politicians are pushing for minimum rates of alcohol duty. They are already saying that it would be shame if any increase went to the retailer rather than the government! If this goes through, expect Scotch and other spirits to be £50 a bottle very soon. Oh, and surprised comments from politicians as bing drinking is worse. In fact just as bad as Sweden which follows similarly misguided policies!
I totally agree with you on this. This is why environmentalists need to have their ideas challenged before the politicians get the idea that taxation can solve their issues.
As hinted at earlier, I do not feel that I am saving the planet by paying APD, neither do I by having my bin collected half as often for the same council tax.
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challenged before the politicians get the idea that taxation can solve their issues.
