New APD regulation or TK Scam?
Aug 13, 2012, 11:32 pm
#1
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New APD regulation or TK Scam?
Posted here as BMI Tickets and better APD Knowledge than TK Forum
I had a Business Colleague booked with 2 separate DC Award Tickets
MAN-IST using my Miles arranged by me.
IST-BKK using his miles via MBNA Offer arranged by him thanks to me.
2 Separate Reservations, 2 Separate Forms of Payment, 2 Separate tickets hence 2 Separate Contracts as quantified by IATA and also UK APD Info site.
Upon check-in TK demanded a further £136 APD..everything I have understood was that separate tickets even on the same Airline are neither a Connection ticket or Conjunction tickets and therefore no higher APD applies. Unfortunately he also paid Cash..Silly B*gger.
They were both BMI tickets, neither tickets were re-issued, only a somewhat obscure TK-MCO was issued, so I suspect there is no way or system in place that money can or will ever get to the HMRC.
HELP APD Lawyer-Experts
Of course no response to week old e-mail to TK
I had a Business Colleague booked with 2 separate DC Award Tickets
MAN-IST using my Miles arranged by me.
IST-BKK using his miles via MBNA Offer arranged by him thanks to me.
2 Separate Reservations, 2 Separate Forms of Payment, 2 Separate tickets hence 2 Separate Contracts as quantified by IATA and also UK APD Info site.
Upon check-in TK demanded a further £136 APD..everything I have understood was that separate tickets even on the same Airline are neither a Connection ticket or Conjunction tickets and therefore no higher APD applies. Unfortunately he also paid Cash..Silly B*gger.
They were both BMI tickets, neither tickets were re-issued, only a somewhat obscure TK-MCO was issued, so I suspect there is no way or system in place that money can or will ever get to the HMRC.
HELP APD Lawyer-Experts
Of course no response to week old e-mail to TK
Aug 14, 2012, 1:23 am
#2
Join Date: Mar 2008
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I'm pretty sure Her Majesty's Customs & Excise (or what ever they call themselves these days) ignores the fact that there are two separate tickets and the only consideration is how long any intermediate connection is. If it less than the time stipulated in the rules then it is considered a transit and the APD through to the final destination is to be collected.
And BTW "Connection ticket or Conjunction tickets" only come into play if your are transiting through the UK are are seeking to avoid paying any APD
Edited to add: I have tracked the relevant web page, and now I am not so sure. See here
In section 2.1.1
And BTW "Connection ticket or Conjunction tickets" only come into play if your are transiting through the UK are are seeking to avoid paying any APD
Edited to add: I have tracked the relevant web page, and now I am not so sure. See here
In section 2.1.1
APD shall be charged on the carriage of each chargeable passenger at the rate appropriate for the place where the passengers’ journey ends.
Journey means the journey from the passenger’s original place of departure to the final place of destination.
The original place of departure and the final place of destination mean the original place of departure and the final place of destination indicated on the ticket.
But:
Journey means the journey from the passenger’s original place of departure to the final place of destination.
The original place of departure and the final place of destination mean the original place of departure and the final place of destination indicated on the ticket.
But:
- where a journey includes two or more flights, and
- any of those flights is not followed by a connected flight,
Last edited by pandaperth; Aug 14, 2012 at 2:01 am
Aug 14, 2012, 1:50 am
#3
Join Date: Jul 2009
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I'm pretty sure Her Majesty's Customs & Excise (or what ever they call themselves these days) ignores the fact that there are two separate tickets and the only consideration is how long any intermediate connection is. If it less than the time stipulated in the rules then it is considered a transit and the APD through to the final destination is to be collected.
And BTW "Connection ticket or Conjunction tickets" only come into play if your are transiting through the UK are are seeking to avoid paying any APD
And BTW "Connection ticket or Conjunction tickets" only come into play if your are transiting through the UK are are seeking to avoid paying any APD
Aug 14, 2012, 2:50 am
#4
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,492
With separate tickets, how did TK know he was travelling onwards? did he tell them?
I would have thought that if he turned up with a MAN-IST ticket and said nothing then they would have checked him and his bags through to IST only, he could have got his baggage etc and rechecked in
I would have thought that if he turned up with a MAN-IST ticket and said nothing then they would have checked him and his bags through to IST only, he could have got his baggage etc and rechecked in
Aug 14, 2012, 3:32 am
#5
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Apparently, the OP showed his reservation/e-ticket for IST-BKK and asked for a BP for IST-BKK or the bags to be tagged to final dest...This was not very wise as it made him liable to pay increased APD
Aug 14, 2012, 3:33 am
#6
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Yes, that would have been a better solution and most likely would have worked
Aug 14, 2012, 3:37 am
#7
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Scam may be too strong a word. It could be that TK are being over-zealous in interpreting the rules: or it could be their interpretation is one enforced by HMRC. Who knows - the Revenue might have got a handle on the amounts of this juicy tax that is escaping them through creative itineraries.
In effect, the application of the rules as described by the OP assumes that the connectivity of the journey (same airline, direct transfer, baggage straight through, boarding cards for both sectors issued in UK etc) adds up to make a powerful case over-riding the use of two tickets to circumvent the regulations.
For APD purposes connected flights are treated as one journey and APD is charged according to a passenger’s final destination irrespective of the number of flights that they take to reach this, provided the flights are connected.
Nothing to lose by asking the Revenue how they interpret the OP's intinerary for ADP purposes.
In effect, the application of the rules as described by the OP assumes that the connectivity of the journey (same airline, direct transfer, baggage straight through, boarding cards for both sectors issued in UK etc) adds up to make a powerful case over-riding the use of two tickets to circumvent the regulations.
For APD purposes connected flights are treated as one journey and APD is charged according to a passenger’s final destination irrespective of the number of flights that they take to reach this, provided the flights are connected.
Nothing to lose by asking the Revenue how they interpret the OP's intinerary for ADP purposes.
Aug 14, 2012, 4:39 am
#8
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I understand The APD Regulations require that it has to be on 1 Ticket or Tickets issued in connection when stopovers are less than 24 hours..
Every day Thousands of passengers fly via Europe on seperate tickets and request that their Bags be checked though.
So far the only instances of additional collections seem to involve TK at MAN.
I am just wondering if HMCR had closed the loophole with the 1st of April increase. If they have why no other Posts of the additional collections.
Why is there never a BA or other UK check-in person on this Forum when I need one LOL
Every day Thousands of passengers fly via Europe on seperate tickets and request that their Bags be checked though.
So far the only instances of additional collections seem to involve TK at MAN.
I am just wondering if HMCR had closed the loophole with the 1st of April increase. If they have why no other Posts of the additional collections.
Why is there never a BA or other UK check-in person on this Forum when I need one LOL
Aug 14, 2012, 6:18 am
#9
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: N.Wales, UK
Posts: 933
I'm travelling on my first redemption in a few years, with my 10 month old daughter and Mrs, from MAN-IST then 3 hours later IST-HKG, in just a month...
Why, why, why?? I'm going to be in the dog house by the Mrs if this goes wrong!!
So what's the concensus then?
a) Not bother to ask for bags to be checked through, collect bags at IST, pay the £10 visa thingy to enter Turkey, and re-check for the IST-HKG flight??
b) Ask at MAN for bags to be checked through and risk having to pay APD? I'm guessing there is no real benefit to this other than not having to collect bags, they won't make themselves liable for a mis-connection surely??
Edited: 2 seperate BMI C+M redemptions, Both TK flights in C class.
Last edited by dannyrado; Aug 14, 2012 at 10:38 am
Aug 14, 2012, 9:48 am
#10
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Absolutely wonderful! No really, perfect....
I'm travelling on my first redemption in a few years, with my 10 month old daughter and Mrs, from MAN-IST then 3 hours later IST-HKG, in just a month...
Why, why, why?? I'm going to be in the dog house by the Mrs if this goes wrong!!
So what's the concensus then?
a) Not bother to ask for bags to be checked through, collect bags at IST, pay the £10 visa thingy to enter Turkey, and re-check for the IST-HKG flight??
b) Ask at MAN for bags to be checked through and risk having to pay APD? I'm guessing there is no real benefit to this other than not having to collect bags, they won't make themselves liable for a mis-connection surely??
I'm travelling on my first redemption in a few years, with my 10 month old daughter and Mrs, from MAN-IST then 3 hours later IST-HKG, in just a month...
Why, why, why?? I'm going to be in the dog house by the Mrs if this goes wrong!!
So what's the concensus then?
a) Not bother to ask for bags to be checked through, collect bags at IST, pay the £10 visa thingy to enter Turkey, and re-check for the IST-HKG flight??
b) Ask at MAN for bags to be checked through and risk having to pay APD? I'm guessing there is no real benefit to this other than not having to collect bags, they won't make themselves liable for a mis-connection surely??
If it's a single ticket, MAN-HKG connecting in IST then you should already have paid APD bundled in the taxes and fees.
If you have two tickets: then is this a paid flight + a redemption flight: or two redemptions ? and are they both on TK?
Aug 14, 2012, 10:37 am
#11
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: N.Wales, UK
Posts: 933
It's not clear whether you are travelling on two separate tickets - one ticket for each sector.
If it's a single ticket, MAN-HKG connecting in IST then you should already have paid APD bundled in the taxes and fees.
If you have two tickets: then is this a paid flight + a redemption flight: or two redemptions ? and are they both on TK?
If it's a single ticket, MAN-HKG connecting in IST then you should already have paid APD bundled in the taxes and fees.
If you have two tickets: then is this a paid flight + a redemption flight: or two redemptions ? and are they both on TK?
Aug 14, 2012, 10:58 am
#12
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Manchester, England
Programs: Bonvoy LT Plat, HH Diamond, IHG Plat, BMI Gold (RIP)
Posts: 8,021
- Ask them to connect the flights by checking bags through and they will ask for APD to be paid.
- Clear through immigration, collect boarding passes and bag drop in IST and you won't be asked for anything, even if they know you have two bookings.
It is asking for your ex-IST boarding passes, or asking your bags to be checked through that causes problems. In their view, doing either will mean that HMRC will consider you to have a through flight due to both of them being connected together in the system, hence the charging of APD.
No idea on whether this is right or wrong, but that is what they are working to.
Aug 14, 2012, 12:15 pm
#13
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: N.Wales, UK
Posts: 933
Having dealt with the TK team at MAN, they seem to be applying the following:
- Ask them to connect the flights by checking bags through and they will ask for APD to be paid.
- Clear through immigration, collect boarding passes and bag drop in IST and you won't be asked for anything, even if they know you have two bookings.
It is asking for your ex-IST boarding passes, or asking your bags to be checked through that causes problems. In their view, doing either will mean that HMRC will consider you to have a through flight due to both of them being connected together in the system, hence the charging of APD.
No idea on whether this is right or wrong, but that is what they are working to.
- Ask them to connect the flights by checking bags through and they will ask for APD to be paid.
- Clear through immigration, collect boarding passes and bag drop in IST and you won't be asked for anything, even if they know you have two bookings.
It is asking for your ex-IST boarding passes, or asking your bags to be checked through that causes problems. In their view, doing either will mean that HMRC will consider you to have a through flight due to both of them being connected together in the system, hence the charging of APD.
No idea on whether this is right or wrong, but that is what they are working to.
So what's the proceedure like in IST, do i have to pre-apply for visa? Or do you still just have to give a tenner over?? Presumably it's pick up bags, clear immigration, walk to check in desks, hand bags back to check in?? What's the process like in reality?
We supposedly land at 2205 and back out at 0055, hopefully we'll be ok with that.
Aug 14, 2012, 12:29 pm
#14
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 110
New APD regulation or TK Scam?
How can they ever police this? These are 2 separate transactions and should be treated separately. Yes if you ask for them to be joined up then I would agree the tax is liable but on 2 separate bookings and rechecking in? They simply can't . Could Hmrc ask for apd due on people who take positioning flight and then move on to our next flight? Of course not.
Aug 14, 2012, 12:30 pm
#15
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: London
Programs: BA
Posts: 2,368
Data reporting
It's the way that TK generate their data for the APD records that they have to keep in case HMRC wish to inspect them.
If you have two bookings, eg:
MAN-IST
and
IST-BKK
and just check-in for the MAN-IST sector, the data held by TK would show that you flew to IST.
If however, you ask for your bags to be sent to BKK, the records held by TK would show that you flew all the way to BKK with them.
HMRC have discovered that some carriers* were turning a blind eye to people buying two tickets in order to creatively avoid paying a higher rate of APD.
(* to be clear, I am not casting aspersions on TK or any other carrier in particular)
If you have two bookings, eg:
MAN-IST
and
IST-BKK
and just check-in for the MAN-IST sector, the data held by TK would show that you flew to IST.
If however, you ask for your bags to be sent to BKK, the records held by TK would show that you flew all the way to BKK with them.
HMRC have discovered that some carriers* were turning a blind eye to people buying two tickets in order to creatively avoid paying a higher rate of APD.
(* to be clear, I am not casting aspersions on TK or any other carrier in particular)