Red Light Camera Ticket
 

So last night I was in an AVIS rental in the Hayward, CA area.

Made a right turn onto the freeway, and a red light camera flashed me and I presume will be trying to ticket me.

I want to dispute this. I know for a fact that the traffic camera's in Hayward are mostly bogus.

But is Avis going to pay the ticket without informing me first and then try to pass the bill to me? Anyway I can try to intervene and tell them NOT to pay and to forward the ticket to me so I can fight it?

I'm literally considering reporting my cc as lost/stolen so they cant automatically charge anything to my card.

This is a nearly $500 ticket and I know I can win it, if given the chance.

Based on experience, unless you can prove you weren't driving the car, you won't beat the ticket.

No experience here, but I bet they would still pay and then collect from you, maybe tacking on a collection fee.

The kicker is the collection fee which can be quite hefty.

The best approach is to see whether the Hayward system allows you to track the ticket based on the plate # only and for you to challenge the ticket before it is physically processed.

Practically speaking, don't expect success and be prepared to devote a lot of time to this. The good news is that because these tickets are issued against the plate not the driver, you should not see the insurance consequences suffered when you are stopped and ticketed.

The issue is that I know, for a positive fact, that the red light ticket is going to issue what is known as a 'snitch ticket' in California. Its not reported to the courts, and I dont have to pay it whatsoever.

If the system were to send the ticket just to me, I'd discard it. But I'm worried about Avis paying it without my consent then coming after me to foot the bill after the fact.

I will see if there's a way to track down the ticket somehow and have it routed to me instead of Avis so I can deal it with appropriately.

Avis has your consent. Unless you signed a non-standard contract, you agreed that Avis can pay any ticket issued by a govt. agency as well as the admin. fee associated with it.

Whether the local govt. could or would pursue the ticket in court has nothing to do with what you agreed Avis could do.

The California appellate courts have been regularly reversing red light camera ticket convictions.

I know, but I'm still going to try to fight it. :)

We'll see what happens, and I'll let everyone know in case there's any hope.

What you should do is inform the car rental company that you believe the ticket was issued in error and you do want to fight it. Include the date time and location. Ask them to advise you how to proceed. Keep a copy of all correspondence you send to Avis and the government entities. I would even send a certified to each place. Then you might stand a chance of protesting the charge on your credit card

Someone is giving you terrible advice. The tickets certainly are reported to the courts, and you will end up having to pay it unless you contest in court.

The good news is that sometimes those flashes occur randomly, so perhaps your car wasn't ticketed.... unless you know yourself that you went through the light.

My mother got stuck with one of the damn tickets while visiting me in California - luckily no home state license repercussions, but still a hefty fine.

what i do is check on states website few days later, enter the plate and you will find the violation there and pay it right there with card. by doing that the rental agency will not get the tickets to forward to you cos you took the action too early, too fast.

MAKE A FULL STOP AT RED LIGHT, BEFORE YOU TURN RIGHT, Even if your state allows TURN ON RED LIGHT BUT THERE IS A CAMERA ON THE INTERSECTION and if you turn right on red without making full stop, it is same as going on red light and they will take a free picture of you in your car, but it wil only show the car and plate not you

No, they are not. I have fought these tickets before, when not in a rental car, and have won. Not that I make it a habit of running red lights or anything. And if I lose, so be it. But I just want the opportunity to make my case instead of having Avis defacto plead guilty for me.

I know its a long shot and the odds are stacked against me... but still going to try for $500.

THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. THIS IS ALL FROM MEMORY WHICH MAY BE WRONG. FOR ENTERTAINMENT VALUE ONLY:

I got a red light camera ticket in Florida while renting a car.

This was between Hollywood and Miami Beach.

It was probably Avis or Budget which I usually rent from but not 100% sure.

I remember running the red (barely) and the camera sign in front of me.

I was emailed a link to both stills and video clip in super hi res of my car, so clear you could see the passengers and license plate.

They did NOT charge my credit card.

I was given the ticket with a link to pay, and there was I believe $35 surchargee "processing" fee from the rental company.

The whole charge I think was around $150.

I am fundamentally against the whole red light camera thing so I wanted to fight it.

I called a law office in Miami.

I was told basically that it's not worth the time or effort to fight it.

I was told "If you pay, there's no points and no reporting to your insurance company."

"If you don't pay or fight it and lose, you risk points/insurance ramifications and more costs"

Not sure if any of that was true, but I figured it's basically a tourist tax, and I ran the light anyway....

I did NOT like that at night the cameras have a distracting flash. I was flashed while turning right (on green or yellow) several times and I was thinking "great I will have $1000 in fines when I get home"... but I didn't...

Just the one where I rolled through a yellow -> red with no one around.

I also wasnt going to fly back to go to court in Florida....

MODERATOR'S NOTE

Let's keep this on-topic as to if/how rajuabju can work through Avis or the legal system to challenge this before Avis automatically pays and bills them. I know most of us have strong feelings one way or the other as to red light cameras, but this isn't the forum to debate that. This is how we can help another frequent traveler to hopefully get the correct outcome.

Thanks!

The initial ticket will be issued to Avis. They will search their records and then send in a nomination form ID'ing you as the driver. There isn't really anything you can do about that part, it's company policy.

However, they will not automatically bill your credit card for the ticket. You will simply get the ticket in the mail from the court with your name and picture. I think some car companies do charge you a $30 or so "administrative fee" for ratting you out as the driver.

From that point, you can fight it just like you got it regularly through the mail in your own car. I found some really useful information here:

http://redlightcameradefenders.com/f...ked-questions/

Good luck!

This is not legal advice.

Avis uses American Traffic Solutions to bill fines incurred during rentals. At least on the East Coast they do, and since ATS is in Phoenix I don't know why they wouldn't cover your ticket also. I have two email addresses for them:

[email protected], and
[email protected]

I've gotten parking tickets in the past (admittedly easier to handle than your red light ticket situation because I've had the citation number, so not perfectly analogous) and I've sent an email like this to both emails, also copied to Avis via online form:

They sent an auto-responder confirming receipt. When they later billed me for the tickets anyway, and I contested the charges with my credit card company, this correspondence was sufficient to win the dispute even though they answered affirmatively with my rental contract. YMMV.

See if you can get the local news to do something, try the bay area's ABC-7 (KGO-TV) and Michael Finney's "7 on your side" I think CBS 5 (KPIX) has something similar.

Well, an update 'sort of' on my ticket... 45 days have passed, and so far, nothing about the ticket that I'm almost sure I got photo'd on.

Instead, what do I get in the mail? A big envelope from Avis claiming I DAMAGED the car, complete with repair estimates, photos of the damage to the front bumper of the car, and a demand for payment for the repairs and loss of use.

This was of course totally ridiculous. I inspected the car prior to leaving the lot when I picked up the rental, and I inspected the car upon drop off, with the agent who gave me my check-out. We walked all around the car, and the agent looked inside the vehicle as well.

The damage they are showing me from the pictures ... NO WAY it could be missed by anyone walking by the car. the entire front bumper is totally scratched up, the license plate is ripped off, etc. It looks like the car rear ended an object or rubbed against a fence or something sideways.

Amongst the items Avis included in the envelope is a statement by an employee (I think a checkout agent) that "customer left before agent noticed damage". This damage is substantial enough that there is ZERO chance it could be missed.

I immediately called up the Avis claims dept. They demanded I pay. I told them no way, and if necessary, I would be going to court. I left the car with them without damage. I spoke with a supervisor who reluctantly agreed there is no way a reasonable person could have missed the damage with any level of inspection, and agreed to close the case out. I will be anxiously awaiting the confirmation of this matter in the mail.

If its not one thing, its another I guess.

Thanks for the progress report. Sounds like you'll be okay, but write back if they didn't really close the case out.

I had the same issue with national!

Got a smartphone? Video record the walk around at pickup and dropoff. Include the checkout/checkin employee saying their name and date.

Do you do this every time you pick up and return a rental car?

I always try to...but mostly use still photographs rather than video.

I might try doing both next time...

I've never used my phone for video, but I've never had use for video before. I'm sure I could figure it out, but I would think that just taking pics would be good enough, at least I'd hope so. But then I have never had a charge for damages after the fact either.

Here's a good story about a similar case in Arizona. It's important to note that things vary greatly by state.
http://photoradarscam.wordpress.com/...o-enforcement/


Basically though, at least in that case, the rental car company (Payless) bills you for the ticket + $50. If you end up fighting your ticket and winning, you can pursue a refund of both charges.

Back to red light cameras, around where I live, they take two flash pictures if you violate. The first is to show you behind the stop line with the light red and the second is beyond the stop line (plus there's video). Obviously the first one does not mean a violation has occurred, just that it thinks you might violate. A picture of you beyond the stop line with the light red means nothing on its own hence the need for the before picture. It's almost impossible to make a legal right turn on red without getting the before picture taken.

Out of State Ticket
 

I received a red light camera ticket in Tucson where I live. They tried to serve the court paper every other day 2 weeks before the court date. I did not open the door. They must have dropped the case because I did not received anything for 2 months. A few of my friend avoid paying using the same strategy in Arizona.

It is going to be harder for them to serve you and I don't think they are going to because you are out of state.

If i were you, I would report lost of my credit card so that Avis cannot use your credit card to pay the fine. If I can beat a local red light ticket, you should be able to beat an out of state ticket. $400 is a lot of money and CA need you to help their budget problem.

TY

I AM NOT AN ATTORNEY, nor do I play one on TV.

First, I do not know what the law is in Arizona, but in most states, it is not necessary to serve someone for a motor vehicle moving or parking violation. That means, someone MIGHT have been trying to serve you for something you were not aware of.

Second, again, I do not know what the law is in Arizona, but in Florida and several other states, if repeated attempts for service are not successful over a certain period of time, there is something called alternative service. In Florida, and some other states, after repeated, attempted, in person, unsuccessful service, the party bringing the lawsuit has the option to publish notice of service in the legal newspaper of record for a certain period of time. In Florida, I'm not sure, but I think the time period is 60 days, after which time the law suit is considered fully served, and the case can proceed. Of course at that point, if you do not file an answer within the allowable period of time and/or appear at the first hearing, you will lose by default, and a judgment will be entered on the court records and then recorded against you. So, if I were you, I would not be so proud of avoiding service, and also, it would be a good idea for you to contact an attorney to find out what might have happened, and what the lawsuit was about. Every state is different in some ways, but there are many similarities too. I am not giving legal advice, I am giving common sense advice, and I hope that it works out for you.

I've never had a camera flash for right-on-red. They way they typically work is that they're actually speed cameras. If you're approaching the stop line at 50 and the light is red, the system assumes you're going to run it and takes the two pictures. For right on red, unless you're really squealing your tires, you shouldn't be going fast enough. There's some sort of minimum speed before the picture is taken.

However, it sounds like the OP has a whole 'nuther issue to worry about, the bogus damage charges. This comes up a lot, unfortunately.

I know Houston was putting in cameras that would get you for a RoR if you didn't make a full and complete stop at the redlight before starting again to make your turn. I've seen signs in TN intersections (intersections where they have redlight cameras) that read: "Right turn on red ONLY after stop." I presume they have the same/similar setup as Houston.

Like you said, if it's not the red light ticket it's Avis and if not that it will be something else. I'm always willing to help out a fellow FTer, so just write me a check for $500 and put this experience behind you. Or PayPal, or whatever. No need to cancel your CC or go to court or anything. ;) You're welcome.:D

Some $0.02 on each issue (not worth much, maybe a penny for each issue):

a) The bogus damage claim: I've rented 100s of times with Hertz and never had this problem except once, in California. Anecdotal evidence suggests to me that California has more of a problem with this type of stuff. And some parts of Europe.

b) The photo ticket: Mine was photo radar. I was speeding. Fast.

Hertz didn't pay the ticket, but they did give the law my information, and 18 months later I was mailed a blurry photograph that would never hold up in court.

At court I approached the officer (acting as state's attorney) and told him I was going to ask for the charges to be dismissed based on the quality of the photo.

He said, "I wish they wouldn't send out those poor quality scans," and proceeded to show me a very clear photo of yours truly.

I immediately realized and admitted I didn't have a case. He appreciated my forthrightness and we started discussing photo radar technology (the older systems are 35mm that get scanned, poorly as in my case, the new systems are all digital).

He then offered to reduce the ticket to the minimum allowed by law. I accepted. The judge seemed a bit stunned, and said, "Mr. Rut Dog, you drive a good bargain." A $500 fine was reduced to $100.

I was just honest, reasonable, and friendly. It can go a long way in court.

it can take up to 3 - 6 months for the ticket to arrive :( so not off the hook yet. hope all goes well

You had an excellent case. The photo was hearsay and the cop was not competent to lay a foundation to have it admitted in evidence.

You may want to read the following California Court of Appeals case:

I'm no lawyer, but skimming this case it is clear that the hearsay argument is based on the police officer having no direct involvement with the camera.
My conversation with the officer in my case made clear quite the opposite. He was happy to describe, at length, how he set up the portable unit, posted a sign, calibrated the camera, etc, etc. It was all rather interesting.

Are you sure you are "no lawyer?" You laid out that cogent argument very competently and succinctly! I have heard "yes lawyers" do it much less competently and succinctly! :)

I got a speed cam ticket from Pima County, AZ (Tucson) in the mail today. I do recall the flash so I was not surprised (I did not think I was driving too fast under the conditions but never mind that). I also got, today, a notice from Hertz that included a bill for $30 default is they charge my cc. The traffic enforcement company (this is contracted out) finds Hertz as the owner of the vehicle (even though it had Washington State plates), Hertz gives them my ID, and probably all the driver license info too, and charges me $30. OK, not worth arguing about.

The ticket, though is $236 for 11 mph over the limit, which is pretty hefty. I live on the east coast. It is my understanding from what I've read on the web (I know, worth what I paid for it) is that there will be no follow up on the ticket unless I am served by a process server, or I waive my rights for service by signing the form and sending them the dough.

I'm wondering if they will try to serve me as I'm out of state.

I'm also wondering if I pay the fine, if it will show up on my driving record here, and result in an insurance surcharge. I did not think this info would cross state lines, and it did not years ago when I got my last speeding ticket, in Utah, but again stuff I read on the web suggests this info is now shared.

Anyone have any experiences with this?

Check it out, see if you can find one real, provable, person who you can be sure has actually been served over a simple moving violation which does not involve damage to persons or property, or DUI, no matter where someone lives. AFAIK, there is no state in the US which has service for no damage no DUI moving violations, not in state, not out of state, for single violations. However, check how many states which do have compacts with other states for points being assessed if no defense or court appearance or ticket payment is made for moving violations. As always, YMMV!

ADD EDIT: How will you feel about this if you do ignore it, and a year from now, after points have been assessed, and your insurance goes up by $300 every six months for the next three years, for a $236 ticket, while you did nothing to check into it with proper legal advice or at least more than researching it on the Internet?

Count your blessings that the ticket is not from California. You would have been looking at least double that fine (including all the penalty assessments).

They will not try to serve it out of state, however, it will probably end up on your credit report.

That depends on whether your home state is a member of the Interstate Driver's License Compact. Only five states are not in the compact, Georgia, Massachusetts, Michigan, Tennessee and Wisconsin.

Oh I have been researching it on the Internet quite a bit, and the post that you responded to is evidence to that, as I'm trying to see if I can find someone who has had similar experience, and if not on Flyertalk, then where? :) My insurance surcharge would be about $100 bucks a year for three years (I don't insure my car for collision / comprehensive, only for damage to other people and vehicles). I don't think I would get much lawyer time for $500.

And yes of course the insurance surcharge would be more than the fine. But if the notice of violation without summons is not a valid ticket, then I would think that would not count as an infraction for insurance purposes, no? OTOH, if I sign the form which waives my right to summons and I pay the fine, would that not be an admission of guilt and then I'd expect my insurance to be notified?

Actually I think the insurance would get notified by the state DMV, which is how bad driver point are assessed. But maybe I'm safe (see the post immediately before this) because my location is BOS :D Have to confirm that one.

Thanks for the answers!