pho9187

Hi everyone,

I am a middle-aged adventurous lady bound for Southeast Asia in October, 2012. I have to get my frequent flyer international tickets soon, so I would appreciate help with my itinerary. I am mostly interested in advice about the structure of the itinerary--ie am I going in the right order, are the number of alloted days in each city correct, etc. I would also like to know if I am hitting any holidays or festivals that will hinder my sightseeing.

I have planned to be out about three weeks, but I can add or delete maybe a day or two. I like to hike, and I also like history, museums, culture, and street food. I am very slow and thorough in museums, and shopping is not a priority for me. I would prefer not to stay overnight on a boat in Halong Bay--I get a bit queesy on boats.

Here it is---thanks in advance for your suggestions:

Sunday, Oct 14: arrive Hanoi 9:40 AM from LAX via Hong Kong

Monday, Oct 15: day trip to Halong Bay (Hanoi museums close on Monday)

Tuesday, Oct 16: Hanoi

Wednesday, Oct. 17: Hanoi

Thursday, Oct 18: night train to Sapa (Laocai) (8:30 PM)

Friday, Oct 19: arrive in Sapa 5 AM, spend the day trekking, stay in Sapa

Saturday, Oct 20: Sapa trekking, take 7:30 PM train Sapa (Laocai) to Hanoi

Sunday, Oct 21: arrive 4:30 AM in Hanoi - 7 AM flight Hanoi to Saigon, arrive 9 AM--find private driver to go directly from airport to Chu Chi tunnels, and then to Saigon hotel

Monday, Oct 22: Saigon

Tuesday, Oct 23: 4:30 PM flight Saigon to Siem Riep, arrive 5:30 PM

Wednesday, Oct 24: Angkor Wat

Thursday, Oct. 25: Angkor Wat

Friday, October 26: day trip to water village

Saturday, October 27: 12:40 PM flight Siem Riep to Luang Prabang, arrive 2 PM

Sunday, Oct 28: Luang Prabang

Monday, Oct 29: day trip to Elephant Village (mahout training)

Tuesday, Oct 30: 4:10 PM flight Luang Prabang to Bangkok, arrive 6:10 PM

Wednesday, Oct 31: Bangkok

Thursday, Nov 1: Bangkok

Friday, Nov 2: day trip to Ayutthaya

Saturday, Nov 3: Bangkok

Sunday, Nov 4: 6:40 PM departure for LAX via Hong Kong

Thank you everyone,

pho9187

trebex

Some might say you are trying to cover too much ground in a short time. But if that works for you, go for it.

I see you have a train arriving at 4:30 AM and then a flight at 7. What if the train is late?

jiejie

Agree this is a lot of moving around in a short period of time, I assume that's what you want to do though.

--Hanoi could be shortened by one day since you still have most of the day before leaving for Sapa. 2 days can take care of Hanoi city key sights.
--Halong Daytrip: leave REALLY early like by 6 am so you can finish up and get back to port and on the road by 4 pm or so, and make it much of the way back to Hanoi before darkness sets in. You may need a private driver.
--Sapa train to Hanoi plane: Agree with above, you are having too much faith in published schedules and leaving no time for irregularities. Schedule a flight out of Hanoi for a little later in the morning. I don't think the plan to go from airport to CuChi directly is very appetizing.
--Saigon: given your stated interests, this is the least inspiring part of your trip. You may wish to consider substituting Hue, the DMZ (and Vinh Moc tunnels) and Hoi An instead, which may match your interests better. Hue has an airport. Danang (DAD) is the airport closest to Hoi An (45 minutes away). You would probably have to transit SGN in order to catch the flight to REP, as currently DAD isn't flush with international flights that work for you. If you do this, stick the day saved in Hanoi to this part--and try to find 4 full days for this area.
--Not sure about the mahout training, I've seen some serious versions and some silly ones. I don't know which way this blows at LP but it seems a superfluous activity anyway, on such a short trip.
--You could probably cut a day out of Bangkok/Ayutthaya part. You'll get a lot of useable last day if your outbound flight doesn't leave until early evening.

It still seems like you are cramming in too much. And all this flying around on this sort of routing isn't going to be cheap. You might check out if an airpass would help you out, but check restrictions as well as pricing.

Chopsticks

...and they say the Asians do (all of) Europe in a week... It took me 20 years to see all this.

Seriously though, is this your first time in SEA? As "trebex" has already noted, if it works for you, fine. But this is a very tight itinerary and you will miss out on a lot of detail. Don't forget, with an itinerary like this, you end up spending 1 or 2 full travel days just going back and forth to and from the airport.

Angkor Wat, for example, usually requires more than 2 days if you really want to have a good look at it.

Suggestion: Leave the Lao part out and spend some more time in the other places. Luang Prabang is nice, but there is already so much to see in the other place you will be travelling to...

In any case, good luck and safe travels.

pho9187

Dear trebex, jiejie, and chopsticks,

Thanks so much for all your advice. I have tried to revise my itinerary using your suggestions. Please tell me what you think. But here are some thoughts first:

-I will leave Laos for another time

-Central Viet Nam did spark my interest, so I decided to add it, thank you jiejie for the suggestion. I am not sure, however to coordinate that part of the trip. Please advise. Was I correct in removing HCMC completely, or should I spend a night or two there, since I have to go through there anyway to fly from Hue or Danang to Siem Riep?

-My son went to Angkor Wat last year---he couldn't stand the masses of tourist groups, so he cut his three day visit by one day, and opted for a non-touristy water village instead, which he enjoyed.

-My son also went to Bangkok on the same trip. He did all the major sites in two days, but it was rushed. He said it was the kind of city where one could spend a month just wandering and eating street food, so I don't want to rush out of there.

-Do you think I should spend a second night in Sapa? I like to hike, but I do not want to stay in a village home, only in a hotel in Sapa. Is there enough of interest to hike to three different spots for the three days, or should I stick to the original two days, one night? How about a drive to the Chinese border towns?

-What do you think of going directly to Halong Bay on the day that I arrive back from Sapa? Maybe have a driver pick me up at the train station? Then I could spend the night at a Hanoi airport hotel, and take an early flight out to Hanoi to central Viet Nam the next morning. I didn't change it on the itinerary yet, awaiting your opinion.


Sunday, Oct 14: arrive Hanoi 9:40 AM from LAX via Hong Kong

Monday, Oct 15: day trip to Halong Bay (Hanoi museums close on Monday)

Tuesday, Oct 16: Hanoi

Wednesday, Oct 17: Hanoi (day trip to Perfume Pagoda?)

Thursday, Oct. 18: night train to Sapa (Laocai) (8:30 PM)

Friday, Oct 19: arrive in Sapa 5 AM, spend the day trekking, stay in Sapa

Saturday, Oct 20: Sapa trekking

Sunday, Oct 21: Sapa trekking, take 7:30 PM train Sapa (Laocai) to Hanoi

Monday, Oct 22: arrive in Hanoi 4:30 AM, 12:20 PM flight Hanoi to Hue, arrive 1:30 PM (only flight)

Tuesday, Oct 23: Hue

Wednesday, Oct 24: Hue

Thursday, Oct 25: day trip to My Song, and Cham museum in Danang

Friday, Oct 26: DMZ and Vinh Moc tunnels day trip, sleep in Hue (time for Phong Nha caves?)

Saturday, Oct 27: Hoi An day trip, sleep in Hue

Sunday, Oct 28: 1 PM flight Hue to Siem Riep, arrive 5:30 PM (change planes in HCMC)

Monday, Oct 29: Angkor Wat

Tuesday, Oct 30: Angkor Wat

Monday, Oct 29: day trip to water village

Tuesday, Oct 30: 9:45 AM flight Siem Riep to Bangkok, arrive 11 AM

Wednesday, Oct 31: Bangkok

Thursday, Nov 1: day trip to Kanchanaburi (WW II sites) or cooking class ?

Friday, Nov 2: day trip to Ayutthaya

Saturday, Nov 3: Bangkok

Sunday, Nov 4: 6:40 PM departure for LAX via Hong Kong


Thank you AGAIN everyone,

ph0 9187

Chopsticks

Central Vietnam is very nice indeed, so I think it's a good decision to add it.

I find HCMC is quite different from the northern and central parts of VN, so just to get a feel for it and since you have to transit anyway, I would stay a night. Apparently you are doing the tunnel tour in Vinh Moc, so I wouldn't do Cu Chi (as mentioned in your original itinerary), but just hang out around District 1. For 1 day there's enough to see. Then leave on the afternoon flight to REP.

It is an "unfortunate" fact that Angkor is one of the tourist attractions in SEA these days and obviously that means a lot of people. Important is not to go over any of the more important Asian holidays, e.g. Chinese New Year, but I can't think of any in the second half of of October.

What you might want to consider is to get a good guide who knows his/her way around and can show you not only the must-see bits, but also the more quiet corners of Angkor. Angkor is a huge complex and most people (and groups) only go to the very well known places, e.g. Angkor Wat, Angkor Thom etc., but there is a lot to see in other places as well.

In Bangkok one can spend a month and find something new every day. It's been a while ago but I used to live there for a couple of years and I didn't see all of it! One thing you have to take into consideration in BKK is that travelling times can be rather long because of the really bad traffic and the more modern public transport systems (Skytrain, MRT) unfortunately do not reach all parts of the city.

As a suggestion, I would leave the Kanchanaburi part out. I really don't find it very interesting, to be honest. I would rather spend that time in BKK. Cooking class is also a nice idea, but you've got to make sure it's a good one, so you really get something out of it. The Mandarin Oriental comes to mind...

Good luck

jiejie

Pho, for brevity I will insert my comments into your original, in bold font. A lot of it concurs with chopsticks' latest comments.

Two more comments:
1) If you feel strongly about trekking in Sapa, then add a day there, bump everything down a day, and lose one of the Thailand days at the end.
2) The Phong Nga caves are too far to be added into a daytrip to the DMZ/Vinh Moc tunnels all the way from Hue. If you want that, you should plan to do DMZ/Vinh Moc then spend the night in Dong Hoi or Vinh towns, see caves the next morning, then long ride back to Hue that afternoon. Hue sights might have to be rearranged, but no need to add more total days in this area.

Hope this helps get it laid out. I think it's an improvement in quality time over your first pass and is more cost- and time-effective.

pho9187

Dear Chopsticks and jiejie,

Thanks to you both for posting suggestions again. And jiejie, a special thanks for revamping my itinerary--you are truly an asset to flyertalk.

In any case, I present the revised itinerary below, as per your suggestions--please let me know if it is ok.

I do have four final questions:

1. For October 20, given that the Sapa train arrives at 4:30 AM, should I take the 8 AM or the 9:50 AM flight to Danang?

2. For October 22, I am confused about the logistics from Hoi An to Hue. Is the Cham Museum worth the trouble? Is it near the bus or train station? Why is the bus from Danang to Hoi better than the train? How about having a driver take me from Hoi An to Hue--or will that be expensive?

3. The October 26 Mekong Delta trip will be a relaxing interlude. I don't want to take a big tour with a bunch of other people. Is there a way to do this privately, or with a small group? And where does one get on the boat in the Mekong Delta?

4. My son said that the water village in Cambodia only took 1/2 day, and he spent the rest of the day back in Siem Riep looking at temples. He still insists that four nights in Siem Riep is enough. I can decide this later. But if you were to cut out a night in Siem Riep, where would you add it? I was thinking of HCMC--what do you think?

Thank you again,

pho9187


Sunday, Oct 14: arrive Hanoi 9:40 AM from LAX via Hong Kong, light Hanoi sight seeing

Monday, Oct 15: day trip to Halong Bay (Hanoi museums close on Monday) --- leave at 6 AM the latest

Tuesday, Oct 16: Hanoi

Wednesday, Oct 17: night train to Sapa (Laocai) (8:30 PM).

Thursday, Oct. 18: arrive in Sapa 5 AM, spend the day trekking, stay in Sapa.

Friday, Oct 19: Trekking during day. Take 7:30 pm train back to Hanoi

Saturday, Oct 20: Arrive Hanoi 4:30 am, morning flight to Danang: choice of 8 AM or 9:50 AM departure. Transfer to taxi to Hoi An. Walk around old Hoi An. Overnight Hoi An.

Sunday, Oct 21: My Son Cham ruins (1/2 day+ trip), more Hoi An. If weather is nice, beach is very close. Overnight Hoi An.

Monday, Oct 22: Morning after breakfast. Hoi An by car/taxi to Danang, Cham Museum optional, bus or train to Hue. Tickets can be prearranged, or bought on the spot. 3 hour journey Hoi An to Hue either way. Train timing may not be as frequent/optimal as bus. Arrive Hue early afternoon, see some city sights like Citadel and church. Overnight Hue.

Tuesday, Oct 23: A selection of the Imperial Tombs and some other stuff. If weather is really good, switch around days with DMZ day trip. Overnight Hue.

Wednesday, Oct 24: DMZ and VM tunnels day trip. Return early evening to Hue. If you are adventurous, you can do on back of motorcycle riding pillory like I did. If rainy, best to get car. This is really best by private transport not tour, so you control your own schedule and stops. Last night Hue.

Thursday, Oct 25: Morning flight Hue to HCMC, depart 9:20 AM, arrive at 10:40 AM. Check in to hotel and explore some of the Museums, Reunif Palace, etc.

Friday, Oct 26: Day-trip by bus + boat to Mekong Delta.

Saturday, Oct 27: Morning + early afternoon finish up HCMC. Afternoon flight to REP, depart at 4:30 PM, arrive at 5:30 PM. Arrive REP, check in hotel and check out lively center of Siem Reap for dinner.

Sunday, Oct 28: Siem Reap

Monday, Oct 29: Siem Reap

Tuesday, Oct 30: Siem Reap

Monday, Oct 29: 1/2 day trip to water village, Siem Riep in the afternoon

Tuesday, Oct 30: 9:45 AM flight Siem Riep to Bangkok, arrive 11 AM

Wednesday, Oct 31: Bangkok

Thursday, Nov 1: Bangkok

Friday, Nov 2: Bangkok, with possible 1/2 day trip to Ayutthaya, or cooking class (research cooking class at Mandarin Oriental)

Saturday, Nov 3: Bangkok

Sunday, Nov 4: 6:40 PM departure for LAX via Hong Kong

jiejie

One more thing: Ayutthaya is a full day trip (or overnight) not a 1/2 day trip. But again, wait until you get to Bangkok to make final decision. Ayutthaya is something you can do on the spur of the moment and grab a bus or a train up the morning you want to go.

Once you are comfortable with the overall itinerary and time window, go ahead and get your international tickets set up, especially if they are to be award tickets. I don't think there's a need to rush on buying the regional ticket segments just yet. Since October is not that busy for flying around this region, you can probably safely wait until next summer to decide how to do things. The only exception would be if you are booking an international paid ticket that has the opportunity to make a linked, simultaneous purchase of a regional airpass at advantageous rates. But, get to know the cost ranges of the segments you'll be flying before you do an airpass---they aren't always a great deal for all situations or itineraries.

For local arrangements, everywhere you are going is well-set up for making quick arrangements as you go, or maybe a day in advance. The only exception would be if you want a particular guide based on a recommendation, where it would be wise to get your date(s) reserved maybe 6-8 weeks before you get there. SE Asians don't plan or commit too far in advance. For accommodation, I'd just research and make lists of places per city that sound appropriate for your needs. Then next spring, post some questions on forums asking for current opinions, before making a final choice. I (also a middle-aged adventurous lady) always prefer to arrive in a new town with something booked, but have been known to make onward arrangements only a few days in advance (or sometimes in the immediate previous town). I think this can also wait until late next summer, when you can see what the Good Deals are going to be.

For local sights and activities, just research a lot and keep a notebook on your findings and things you'd like to see and do. Treat each "chunk" of itinerary on its own, linked by intercity transportation, and focus on one at a time in depth when planning. 1) Hanoi/Halong 2) Sapa routes 3) Hoi An to Hue 4) HCMC/Mekong 5) Siem Reap 6) Bangkok and any daytrips. Prioritize and fit activities for the time frame you have for each chunk--for this last bit, assistance over the next year from FT'ers and other forums can help advise you.

pho9187

Dear jie jie,

Thanks so much for your great help and all the extra time you have spent helping.

Here is my itinerary. The international award that I am using does not allow stopovers within Southeast Asia. Therefore, I am confident in getting the award for the 21 nights of travel, and maybe fine tuning the itinerary later.

Just a few final points about what I have learned in the past few days.

-Regarding getting from Hoi An to Hue, I will probably take a taxi to the Cham museum in Danang. The museum opens at 7 AM, and they hold luggage for visitors. There is currently a 10:35 train to Hue, so I could be at the museum when it opens, have a mid morning meal, and then catch that train. I realize the schedule may change, but it sounds like a plausible framework. I think the train will work out better than the bus because the views are supposed to be lovely, and I like the idea of having a rest room there when I need it.

-I like the idea of visiting the Mekong Delta while in HCMC, but I dislike touristy activities. I found some one day bike tours that leave from HCMC by bus, where they transport you down to the Delta, and you bike ride around there. That is certainly a possibility, since I am an avid biker.

-I looked into other sites near Siem Reap besides temples, and so far I have found some birdwatching (not my thing), trekking and more biking. I'll keep researching it to find what interests me.

-Thank you for telling me that Ayutthaya requires a full day. My son's friend visited there for only half a day, but he's more of a shopper/leisurely lunch/spa kind of guy. I will probably be there for hours.


Anyway, thanks to jiejie and everyone who helped.

Sincerely,

pho9187


Sunday, Oct 14: arrive Hanoi 9:40 AM from LAX via Hong Kong, light Hanoi sight seeing

Monday, Oct 15: day trip to Halong Bay (Hanoi museums close on Monday) --- leave at 6 AM the latest

Tuesday, Oct 16: Hanoi

Wednesday, Oct 17: night train to Sapa (Laocai) (8:30 PM).

Thursday, Oct. 18: arrive in Sapa 5 AM, spend the day trekking, stay in Sapa.

Friday, Oct 19: Trekking during day. Take 7:30 pm train back to Hanoi

Saturday, Oct 20: Arrive Hanoi 4:30 am, morning flight to Danang, depart 9:50 AM, arrive at 11:05 AM. Transfer to taxi to Hoi An. Walk around old Hoi An. Overnight Hoi An.

Sunday, Oct 21: My Son Cham ruins (1/2 day+ trip), more Hoi An. If weather is nice, beach is very close. Overnight Hoi An.

Monday, Oct 22: Morning after breakfast. Hoi An by car/taxi to Danang, Cham Museum optional, bus or train to Hue. Tickets can be prearranged, or bought on the spot. 3 hour journey Hoi An to Hue either way. Train timing may not be as frequent/optimal as bus. Arrive Hue early afternoon, see some city sights like Citadel and church. Overnight Hue.

Tuesday, Oct 23: A selection of the Imperial Tombs and some other stuff. If weather is really good, switch around days with DMZ day trip. Overnight Hue.

Wednesday, Oct 24: DMZ and VM tunnels day trip. Return early evening to Hue. If you are adventurous, you can do on back of motorcycle riding pillory like I did. If rainy, best to get car. This is really best by private transport not tour, so you control your own schedule and stops. Last night Hue.

Thursday, Oct 25: Morning flight Hue to HCMC, depart 9:20 AM, arrive at 10:40 AM. Check in to hotel and explore some of the Museums, Reunif Palace, etc.

Friday, Oct 26: Day-trip by bus + boat to Mekong Delta.

Saturday, Oct 27: HCMC.

Sunday, Oct 28: Morning flight to HCMC to Siem Reap, depart 8:35 AM, arrive at 9:55 AM.

Monday, Oct 29: Siem Reap

Tuesday, Oct 30: Siem Reap

Monday, Oct 29: 1/2 day trip to water village, Siem Riep in the afternoon

Tuesday, Oct 30: 9:45 AM flight Siem Riep to Bangkok, arrive 11 AM

Wednesday, Oct 31: Bangkok

Thursday, Nov 1: Bangkok

Friday, Nov 2: Bangkok, with possible day trip to Ayutthaya, or cooking class (research cooking class at Mandarin Oriental)

Saturday, Nov 3: Bangkok

Sunday, Nov 4: 6:40 PM departure for LAX via Hong Kong

jiejie

And at the risk of looking silly for not doing this in my first response and belatedly mentioning it now: Welcome to FlyerTalk!

whackyjacky

Once again great work by Jiejie. You know of course, that you're heading into the teeth of the Monsoon. What's happening now could be happening then. wj

pho9187

jiejie,

Thanks so much for the heartfelt welcome and the wonderful advice. I think a two day cruise on the Mekong Delta sounds like a great idea. It will be a nice break from three weeks of museums and temples. But as you said, we have lots of time.

whackyjacky,

Kudos to you for warning me about the monsoons. When I started planning my trip, I looked at the historical rainfall for October, and it looked like I would be fine with an umbrella. Obviously, that is not the case. I am thinking of keeping with my 21 day framework, but perhaps moving the trip two weeks later, in order to be home for Thanksgiving on November 22. (The trip dates would now be October 20 - November 18.) What do you think? Or should I move it even farther out?


Thanks,

pho9187

whackyjacky

Better !

pho9187

Oops--

I meant the trip would now be October 27 to November 18.

Thanks to all!