Jul 29, 2014, 10:15 am
Last edit by: Prospero
This thread is dedicated to issues around American Airlines Corporate Security, AAdvantage Fraud division (AKA "Revenue Protection Unit"), and its enforcement of the AAdvantage Terms and Conditions - particularly to selling, buying and bartering awards, miles, upgrades and other instruments - and related issues.
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
Also see AAdvantage Program Terms and Conditions and
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
The typical email from AA Corporate Security can not be addressed by calling AAdvantage Customer Service or other methods - you must reply to the email address given. It likely will look like this:
Excellent summaries of information (based on the sum of experiences we have seen in this thread over time) of how to respond:
From JonNYC, our resident expert on this:
Older posts have been archived to the
archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
It is okay at this time to gift awards, upgrades, etc. as long as there is absolutely no quid pro quo (no buying or selling or offer to do so, no barter or trade "you give me one now I'll give it back" or anything smacking of prohibited activity. AA is probably the strictest of the US airlines about this. They have a very active and expert AAdvantage Fraud division of the AA Corporate Fraud department, and they can both be aggressive and, some might say merciless - clawing back one's miles and instruments, even closing one's account and terminating status and ability to participate in the AAdvantage program n the future.
There are other ways to commit fraud in AA’s eyes, such as fictitious or fraudulent bookings to try to block seats to increase one’s chances if upgrades, generating tickets to access airside facilities (e.g. lounges) when there is no intent to fly, etc.
To read an example of how the US Department of Transportation has rules on punitive actions by AA, read Joel Hayes vs. American Airlines here (PDF).
Please read on for information and the consensus of knowledgeable members.
E.g. AAdvantage Terms and Conditions excerpt: "At no time may AAdvantage mileage credit or award tickets be purchased, sold, advertised for sale or bartered (including but not limited to transferring, gifting, or promising mileage credit or award tickets in exchange for support of a certain business, product or charity and/or participation in an auction, sweepstakes, raffle or contest). Any such mileage or tickets are void if transferred for cash or other consideration. Violators (including any passenger who uses a purchased or bartered award ticket) may be liable for damages and litigation costs, including American Airlines attorneys’ fees incurred in enforcing this rule." (This extends to other AA instruments such as Systemwide Upgrades, etc., selling of extra AirPass seats or baggage allowance, etc.)
American Airlines Conditions of Carriage.
<snip>"While you may consider the AAdvantage Miles in your account to be *your* property, they are actually the property of AA, and AA permits you to redeem them within the program rules set by AA. If AA detects any impropriety (real or perceived) in the use of AAdvantage miles, they reserve the right to confiscate the miles and/or close/delete the account."...
My name is Fname Lname, and I am an analyst with American Airlines. One of my responsibilities is investigating possible instances of fraud, misrepresentation, and violations of the General AAdvantage Program Conditions. Today, I’m writing you about your AAdvantage account # XXXXXXXX
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
We have reason to believe that the transactions listed below violate one or more of the AAdvantage program conditions. This includes, but is not limited to, prohibition of purchase, sale, or barter of mileage credit and or award tickets. As a result, American Airlines has suspended your AAdvantage membership privileges and use of AA.com® in conjunction with your account – and may terminate your account as a result of our findings. We are in the process of completing the investigation into this matter, and I would like to hear the events as they occurred from your perspective. Please respond to this message by <date> with complete and accurate information regarding the activities listed below:
<specific activity /activities in question>
Required Information:·
- Passenger name·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Mailing address·
- Email address·
- Telephone number·
- Website profile name·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Documentation that you received payment
- Copy of all communication between yourself and the purchaser·
- Your statement fully disclosing the details surrounding the sale/barter transaction referenced above·
- Website profile name·
- Telephone number·
- Email address·
- Mailing address·
- Purchaser contact information, such as:·
- Copy of any advertisements to which you responded offering to purchase/broker the use of your AAdvantage miles·
- Purchaser name (individual, company and/or website), including:·
- Origin and destination cities on the travel itinerary·
To protect and retain the integrity of the AAdvantage program, it is vital that firm action be taken as a result of any violation of the AAdvantage Program Conditions, whether intentional or not. Failure to respond completely and accurately by <insert date>, will result in the termination of your AAdvantage membership and all its benefits, including all remaining AAdvantage miles in your account and any award tickets issued from it. Please, understand that our overall motivation is to preserve the benefits of the AAdvantage program, rather than to take punitive action against individuals. To that end, it’s not unusual for us to release the AAdvantage account suspension once we receive all the detail we request and reconcile it with the results of our investigation. We hope to hear from you soon.
Regards,
Fname Lname, etc.
Blogger Gary Leff: "If you made that mistake and got caught, American usually will go light on first-time offenders provided that they ‘come clean’ and are forthcoming about whom a systemwide was sold to or purchased from and what the terms were. They are most interested in serial brokers and are willing to ‘plea bargain’ with minor offenders to get the Evip-lords. There may be a consequence but it should fall short of account shutdown and forfeiture of miles." Link
I am going to try and provide a summary of the advice. For the record, this is 90% from Jon (JonNYC) and a little bit from other comments and circumstances, I am just trying to provide an easy summary, without all the explanations and reasons. I am happy to have others update/correct.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
1. Respond to the questions in the email which you received. Don't try to call or email that person, or anyone else, at AA or DOT or whatever. Just answer the email.
2. Answer every question, in detail, with the facts. Don't use sarcasm or "you should know" or anything else that sounds like to you are avoiding the exact question being asked.
3. Assume that they know more about the true facts than you do. It might not always be true, but in most cases they have way more information than you might assume. So go back to #2, above.
4. If you did ANYTHING that was wrong (not under your interpretation of what you think the rules should be, but based on what the rules actually say) then, if you want to continue to participate in the AAdvantage program, tell them about your error and tell them that you are prepared to pay a correct penalty for your mistake (miles/status/etc) and then go back to #2, above.
Perfect and 100%.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.
<snip>
The analysts that do this for a living have the same reactions that any humans do to being lied to and/or condescended to. Therefore, as well as being 100% truthful, go out of your way NOT to be:
-condescending
-brusque
-sharp, terse and/or sounding like you're being inconvenienced
-insulting
-just generally slippery, aloof, evasive and unforthcoming. As mentioned; they know more than you think they do. Always.
DO be apologetic, contrite and extremely cooperative.
Finally, any version of "...in which case, I'll be emailing [insert name or department here] to tell them how I, a [insert years flying AA, status, MMer, $$ spent, etc] customer is being treated" and/or mention of your lawyer, DOT, Chris Elliot (
), this forum, any blogger, etc. DO NOT DO THIS.archived thread.
A number of posts regarding AA's confiscation of 60,000 miles from "Mr. Hayes" for allegedly making "fictitious" bookings in search of whether his upgrade would be likely to progress or not, AA IT issues that might have led to this (or not), AA's replies and the USDOT complaint have been moved to a new thread: Hayes, USDOT and AA: "fictitious bookings" and checking upgrades.
NOTE: Posts about members experiencing account security breaches, fraud, theft of awards and instruments have moved to Account fraud / breach: my account compromised, awards stolen, etc..
Account audit / blocked / fraud: award / miles / SWU / sale, barter, etc.
Oct 9, 2018, 4:41 pm
#661
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
FWIW, I fly a lot with American; EQM 480K this year alone - 75+ segments all in the highest possible cabin. I have trips I need to book for travel within the month, but do not want to lock anything in as I am worried there will be issues at airport due to my FF account being locked. I've tried resolving the issue by calling and emailing AA CS, in addition to DMing AA on Twitter. Unfortunately, I've only received canned responses along the lines of "We have notified the experts to contact you as soon as possible..." - ???
I buy award tickets for friends and family whenever possible and donate all of my systemwide upgrades to a non-profit, which has been noted and discussed with my "Executive Liaison," who has also allowed me to earn additional SWU's past the 200K EQM mark (and for this year, 300K EQM mark).
The only recent thing I have experienced that may have come off as "sketch" is that I tried to book a friends ticket (award miles) with my fathers credit card, as my wallet was at home in SF and they live in Mountain View. The lady on the line sort of freaked out and lectured me on how I cannot ever purchase a ticket for someone else with someone else's credit card (my father's - same last name...) and that I would have to be put on hold for a second. I waited, and when the agent came back on the line, she demanded I pay for the ticket with my own card, which I told her (again) I didn't have at the moment. I told her I would just call back tomorrow when home to purchase the ticket. The next day, I call AA and book the ticket with my own card - no issues there, except that my friends itinerary was never ticketed and is still currently 'On Request.'
I can understand just how frustrating it is, especially because they have not yet contacted you with questions. They likely will email you a set of questions. Make sure you are not aggressively spam-blocking email from unknown recipients, as you might not see their email otherwise. When they do contact you, fully answer the questions as soon as possible. Contact JonNYC offline for more guidance.
Oct 9, 2018, 5:09 pm
#662
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,439
1. Have any of those friends and family ever paid you any kind of compensation for those award tickets?
2. Have any of those friends and family ever paid anyone else any kind of compensation for award tickets from other people?
2. Have any of those friends and family ever paid anyone else any kind of compensation for award tickets from other people?
Oct 9, 2018, 7:35 pm
#665
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
I'll try and provide some more detail via PM, but did want to bullet a few points for future reference-- they could be addressed to anyone in this situation, not just the recent poster.
1. Lose-- immediately, fully and permanently-- any tone or sense of privilege that might come from how much you have spent, do spend or will spend on AA. Lose that and don't let it creep back in. If you -still- fell it, fake it *that you don't feel that way,) it's fatal.
While I won't go so far as to say the adage of "the bigger they come, the harder they fall" applies, I will say what I just did say-- don't bring that up and don't expect it to influence corp security (in any -positive- way anyway). If anything, one in that position is expected to know and adhere to the rules -better- than some manufactured-spend noob who **might** be able to use the stupidity defense for a first offense.
2. When one has gotten award tickets for many people; take a long, deep, hard, incisive look into what you got and for whom and if they were all truly gifts w/o any compensation whatsoever. Hypnotize yourself and really look deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep into your brain contents and be honest with yourself about of there were any "exceptions" And/or of any of the gifts you got were actually for a friend getting that gift for a colleague etc., etc. In my mind, about 90% of the issues start right here-- a gifted award ticket for someone you didn't know at the behest of someone else, -or- a gifted award ticket that, in the cold light of day, wasn't truly a gift, -or- a recipient that was a broker or trader, etc.
Look hard. Look deep. And if you think you feel a lightbulb going off, get ready to confess it FULLY. Don't try and cut the corner and 1/3-confess (a very, very common mistake)-- that's pretty much the same as doing nothing.
3. SWUs can be given to a charity, but they cannot then be raffled or in ANY way be used to raise funds, etc. It also might depend what kind of charity and, of course, what the "winners" then did with them, etc.
Will follow up via PM
1. Lose-- immediately, fully and permanently-- any tone or sense of privilege that might come from how much you have spent, do spend or will spend on AA. Lose that and don't let it creep back in. If you -still- fell it, fake it *that you don't feel that way,) it's fatal.
While I won't go so far as to say the adage of "the bigger they come, the harder they fall" applies, I will say what I just did say-- don't bring that up and don't expect it to influence corp security (in any -positive- way anyway). If anything, one in that position is expected to know and adhere to the rules -better- than some manufactured-spend noob who **might** be able to use the stupidity defense for a first offense.
2. When one has gotten award tickets for many people; take a long, deep, hard, incisive look into what you got and for whom and if they were all truly gifts w/o any compensation whatsoever. Hypnotize yourself and really look deeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep into your brain contents and be honest with yourself about of there were any "exceptions" And/or of any of the gifts you got were actually for a friend getting that gift for a colleague etc., etc. In my mind, about 90% of the issues start right here-- a gifted award ticket for someone you didn't know at the behest of someone else, -or- a gifted award ticket that, in the cold light of day, wasn't truly a gift, -or- a recipient that was a broker or trader, etc.
Look hard. Look deep. And if you think you feel a lightbulb going off, get ready to confess it FULLY. Don't try and cut the corner and 1/3-confess (a very, very common mistake)-- that's pretty much the same as doing nothing.
3. SWUs can be given to a charity, but they cannot then be raffled or in ANY way be used to raise funds, etc. It also might depend what kind of charity and, of course, what the "winners" then did with them, etc.
Will follow up via PM
Oct 9, 2018, 8:49 pm
#666
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
And, as arduous as it may seem, in the case of a very prolific gifter, I'd advise them to go back and ask everyone in their account history if there’s anything he should know in this context.
Oct 10, 2018, 6:42 am
#667
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: LAX
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold but PlatPro thanks to LPs
Posts: 4,439
Cheaters destroy the assumptions made to support that revenue analysis. Cheaters introduce negative revenue when they sell their frequent flyer miles.
A well-managed business will boot cheaters and let them and their negative revenue be the competitions' problem.
Oct 10, 2018, 10:02 am
#668
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: jfk area
Programs: AA platinum; 2MM AA, Delta Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,291
I don't have any knowledge on the subject, but I can imagine non-saavy, infrequent flyers who don't realize they are buying from a broker, are buying an award ticket, etc. I've used consolidators in the distant past, and could see someone thinking the web site offering cheap business class fares is some sort of consolidator. I often see ads in the travel section of major newspapers offering discount first/business tickets to Europe, Asia, Australia. I've not looked into them, I don't know if they are legitimate TAs or brokers. I'd hope the newspaper does some sort of vetting, but I don't know.
I agree. I understand AA being suspicious that an AAdvantage member whose account redeemed an expensive award and claims to have been hacked may be lying, but I would hope that AA would be able to institute a process where such situations could be resolved fairly quickly, and with the AAdvantage member being immediately informed of the steps to follow (e.g., police report, etc.). As I mentioned a few posts back, my BA account was hacked and BA took many months to resolve it, with zero communication with me, so the problem isn't unique to AA, but that's no excuse for AA not improving things, if for no other reason than to retain a loyal customer victimized by a hacker.
I agree. I understand AA being suspicious that an AAdvantage member whose account redeemed an expensive award and claims to have been hacked may be lying, but I would hope that AA would be able to institute a process where such situations could be resolved fairly quickly, and with the AAdvantage member being immediately informed of the steps to follow (e.g., police report, etc.). As I mentioned a few posts back, my BA account was hacked and BA took many months to resolve it, with zero communication with me, so the problem isn't unique to AA, but that's no excuse for AA not improving things, if for no other reason than to retain a loyal customer victimized by a hacker.
PS There was a time when CC issuers noted problems using CHIP cards, too difficult to implement, too expensive etc.--now nearly ALL CCs have chips--more secure than magnetic strips.
Oct 10, 2018, 11:33 am
#669
Join Date: Aug 2004
Programs: AA (EP), Hilton (Diamond), Marriott Bonvoy (Titanium)
Posts: 8,937
AA sends an email noting that miles have been redeeming (a few days later), if there is an issue, you can notify AA; but this is a negative solution which may get resolved months later. Using a 2-pass verification system (like Google allows for gmail) is a positive approach to miles being hacked.
PS There was a time when CC issuers noted problems using CHIP cards, too difficult to implement, too expensive etc.--now nearly ALL CCs have chips--more secure than magnetic strips.
PS There was a time when CC issuers noted problems using CHIP cards, too difficult to implement, too expensive etc.--now nearly ALL CCs have chips--more secure than magnetic strips.
Oct 10, 2018, 2:10 pm
#670
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: DCA
Posts: 7,769
Where might you be getting that from? It's not like nearly every one of the OP's posts on FT references how they fly paid first class all the time in paid first class with money that they made from their business and used to pay for paid first class which they flew, in first class.
Oct 10, 2018, 2:22 pm
#671
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: FIND ME ON TWITTER FOR THE LATEST
Posts: 27,730
Where might you be getting that from? It's not like nearly every one of the OP's posts on FT references how they fly paid first class all the time in paid first class with money that they made from their business and used to pay for paid first class which they flew, in first class.
Be nice
Oct 10, 2018, 2:44 pm
#672
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Aspen, CO
Posts: 792
Where might you be getting that from? It's not like nearly every one of the OP's posts on FT references how they fly paid first class all the time in paid first class with money that they made from their business and used to pay for paid first class which they flew, in first class.
Joking, but I get it, I come off as an douche and I'm working on toning that down. We live and we learn...
Oct 10, 2018, 3:22 pm
#673
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: The FT AA forum, until it no longer wants me.
Programs: CK or bust
Posts: 1,913
Now speaking of being nice, I need to stay out of this thread given how very little knowledge I possess about the secret underworld of revenue protection and its mysteries
.
Oct 10, 2018, 11:55 pm
#674
Join Date: May 2007
Location: ORD, DEL
Programs: AA (Plt Pro; 1.5 MM)
Posts: 6,185
Anyway, I do wish you very best in resolving this with AA.
Oct 11, 2018, 5:20 am
#675
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: jfk area
Programs: AA platinum; 2MM AA, Delta Diamond, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 10,291
Two-factor authentication mitigates some attack vectors, but is itself vulnerable to others, with the added disadvantage of being assumed "secure" and hence a victim may be less likely to be believed. The second factor is typically an SMS message, which is vulnerable to non-reception, delay, being sent to an incorrect, outdated, or not available phone. More sophisticated attacks use SS7 to hijack SMS and have them re-routed to phone controlled by the attacker. A less sophisticated attack changes the phone number (and/or email address) of the account.