Charged bag fee by BA for BA operated, AA marketed ticket
I'm posting in the AA forum as the ticket is technically with AA, let me know if I should delete and post in the BA forum instead.
I booked a TATL basic economy ticket for 2 people (me and my friend) with AA on what I believe are AA-marketed flights (all have AA flight numbers, first was an AA operated flight, the connection and both return flights were 'flight AA0000 operated by British Airways'). Booked when I was AA plat/OWS, now AA Gold/OWR. Ticket receipt specifically says 1st/2nd bag fees are 0.00 on both the outbound and return. We were fine on the way out, but I was forced to pay 50EUR for a bag on the return as the agent said his system wouldn't allow him to override that, even after showing the receipt with the price noted. Additionally, the AA website states (bolding mine): The checked bag fees will be waived for all elite members and guests traveling on the same reservation (excluding group reservations) for travel in the Main Cabin on flights marketed and operated by American Airlines or marketed by American or American EagleŽ. The number of waived bag fees depends on your highest status level at time of ticketing or check-in. If your status level is:
EDIT: Just to clarify, I'll tighten this up quite a bit when writing to them, just wanted all of the context here in case there was some gotcha I'm missing. |
Originally Posted by lowfareair
(Post 31899570)
Additionally, the AA website states (bolding mine):
The checked bag fees will be waived for all elite members and guests traveling on the same reservation (excluding group reservations) for travel in the Main Cabin on flights marketed and operated by American Airlines or marketed by American or American EagleŽ. [...] Based on this, I'm assuming I should be refunded as I appear to have followed it to the letter. If that is the case, is it BA as they charged me or AA as they sold me the ticket promising a 0.00 bag fee? I plan on exactly one request before filing a chargeback, but wasn't sure who I need to request this from first. |
Originally Posted by CMTinPHL
(Post 31899626)
Unless I am misreading or misunderstanding the AA website, the flight also needs to be operated by AA. See my added emphasis above. I think it is poorly worded, but why have the second "marketed" clause? If the second means what you believe it does, then why have "operated" in the first place? Am I missing something?
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Originally Posted by lowfareair
(Post 31899655)
It's definitely janky wording, but I think the first part is saying marketed and operated by AA and the second part is saying 'or marketed by American'. I didn't want to focus on it much as it is a secondary point - to me my receipt says the first and second checked bags are 0.00, BA charged me for the first checked bag, ignored the receipt that indicated otherwise, so I'm not sure who should give me the refund - BA for charging me (makes sense) or AA for promising a 0.00 checked bag fee.
2) If BA charged you a fee that was inconsistent to what was printed on your receipt, I think you have to request the refund from them, even though AA was the marketing carrier. 3) I think the DOT would view it as an unfair and misleading practice to tell you that you weren't going to be charged a fee and then actually charge you on the day of travel, so definitely complain to the DOT if you don't get a quick refund from BA. |
I know that the website is irrelevant -- your ticket is your contract and you are entitled to what's printed on it.
What I used to know but now can't remember is whether you go after the operating carrier or the ticketing carrier for the refund. I think (from previous similar situations involving AA-ticketed AS-operated flights bought using an AA credit card, and the ticket -- probably incorrectly -- granting a free bag) that you go after the operating carrier for the refund. They are then free to go after the ticketing carrier for the money if they feel that the ticket should not have granted a free bag under their agreement -- that doesn't involve you. But my memory could be failing me here. |
Originally Posted by VegasGambler
(Post 31899851)
I know that the website is irrelevant -- your ticket is your contract and you are entitled to what's printed on it.
What I used to know but now can't remember is whether you go after the operating carrier or the ticketing carrier for the refund. I think (from previous similar situations involving AA-ticketed AS-operated flights bought using an AA credit card, and the ticket -- probably incorrectly -- granting a free bag) that you go after the operating carrier for the refund. They are then free to go after the ticketing carrier for the money if they feel that the ticket should not have granted a free bag under their agreement -- that doesn't involve you. But my memory could be failing me here. Even if the receipt didn't match what the website said, AA should still stand behind what they put on their website. They should also learn what a comma is. |
The problem here is quite simply that the e-ticket receipt specifies the allowance for OWS. However, the relevant date for baggage waivers (and other perks) is the date of travel. OP says that he was OWR and that is what applies to his ticket.
Bear in mind that the DOT rules regarding baggage for tickets originating or destined to the US is that the baggage allowance of the marketing carrier of the first segment applies to the entire ticket. But, it does not apply as to waivers for status and the like. Hence, either AA or BA would have properly collected the fees due based on OWR. |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 31900050)
The problem here is quite simply that the e-ticket receipt specifies the allowance for OWS. However, the relevant date for baggage waivers (and other perks) is the date of travel. OP says that he was OWR and that is what applies to his ticket.
Bear in mind that the DOT rules regarding baggage for tickets originating or destined to the US is that the baggage allowance of the marketing carrier of the first segment applies to the entire ticket. But, it does not apply as to waivers for status and the like. Hence, either AA or BA would have properly collected the fees due based on OWR. |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 31900050)
The problem here is quite simply that the e-ticket receipt specifies the allowance for OWS. However, the relevant date for baggage waivers (and other perks) is the date of travel. OP says that he was OWR and that is what applies to his ticket.
Bear in mind that the DOT rules regarding baggage for tickets originating or destined to the US is that the baggage allowance of the marketing carrier of the first segment applies to the entire ticket. But, it does not apply as to waivers for status and the like. Hence, either AA or BA would have properly collected the fees due based on OWR. Now while DOT doesn't require elite waivers to be granted, I do believe they require what is listed in the receipt to be followed. Regardless it's BA as the airline that collected the fee that must refund if one is due. AA has no ability nor responsibility to issue one as they didn't collect the money. |
A couple of things here.
Basic Economy for elites works different on AA and BA. With AA basic economy, elites on basic economy can not select a seat in advance, but do keep the free bag benefit. With BA basic economy, elites keep the privilege of selecting a seat BUT have to pay for bags. Since the outbound was on AA flight, it was expected that AA did not charge you for the bag. On the return, I assume that what the BA agent saw is the BA policy, and even as elite, you have to pay for a bag with BA on basic economy. I understand the discussion of what the ticket says etc, but I have always thought that when it comes to baggage allowance, the operating carrier rules are the ones that prevail. |
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 31900050)
The problem here is quite simply that the e-ticket receipt specifies the allowance for OWS. However, the relevant date for baggage waivers (and other perks) is the date of travel. OP says that he was OWR and that is what applies to his ticket.
Bear in mind that the DOT rules regarding baggage for tickets originating or destined to the US is that the baggage allowance of the marketing carrier of the first segment applies to the entire ticket. But, it does not apply as to waivers for status and the like. Hence, either AA or BA would have properly collected the fees due based on OWR. |
Originally Posted by carlosdca
(Post 31900134)
A couple of things here.
Basic Economy for elites works different on AA and BA. With AA basic economy, elites on basic economy can not select a seat in advance, but do keep the free bag benefit. With BA basic economy, elites keep the privilege of selecting a seat BUT have to pay for bags. Since the outbound was on AA flight, it was expected that AA did not charge you for the bag. On the return, I assume that what the BA agent saw is the BA policy, and even as elite, you have to pay for a bag with BA on basic economy. I understand the discussion of what the ticket says etc, but I have always thought that when it comes to baggage allowance, the operating carrier rules are the ones that prevail. |
Originally Posted by VegasGambler
(Post 31899851)
I know that the website is irrelevant -- your ticket is your contract and you are entitled to what's printed on it.
What I used to know but now can't remember is whether you go after the operating carrier or the ticketing carrier for the refund. I think (from previous similar situations involving AA-ticketed AS-operated flights bought using an AA credit card, and the ticket -- probably incorrectly -- granting a free bag) that you go after the operating carrier for the refund. They are then free to go after the ticketing carrier for the money if they feel that the ticket should not have granted a free bag under their agreement -- that doesn't involve you. But my memory could be failing me here. So go after BA the same as you would if they denied you a paid Day-f-departure upgraded seat |
Originally Posted by jordyn
(Post 31900177)
This is also incorrect. The DOT requires that airlines follow the disclosure on the ticket, which in this case said a checked bag would be allowed for free.
Bottom line: BA violated the law by charging the OP. Does anyone see any value (other than bragging rights) in any other argument? |
Originally Posted by lowfareair
(Post 31899570)
I'm posting in the AA forum as the ticket is technically with AA, let me know if I should delete and post in the BA forum instead.
I booked a TATL basic economy ticket for 2 people (me and my friend) with AA on what I believe are AA-marketed flights (all have AA flight numbers, first was an AA operated flight, the connection and both return flights were 'flight AA0000 operated by British Airways'). Booked when I was AA plat/OWS, now AA Gold/OWR. Ticket receipt specifically says 1st/2nd bag fees are 0.00 on both the outbound and return. We were fine on the way out, but I was forced to pay 50EUR for a bag on the return as the agent said his system wouldn't allow him to . If you had a ticket receipt clearly showing no baggage fee, BA was totally wrong here. Speaking of the British, who owned the tea which was dumped in Boston Harbor? Logic seems to indicate it would not have been the British Government who started the tea tax, so why punish someone else? |
2 Attachment(s)
Though I don't know enough about the DOT side of this, from a BA and oneworld point of view you were correctly charged since baggage is operating carrier determined. The relevant table is below, and the BA copy of the oneworld policy is here:
https://www.britishairways.com/asset...e-guide_en.pdf and the BA forum thread on the topic is here: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brit...nounced-6.html In essence a hand baggage only fare on BA means hand baggage only. But status rights for upgrades, seat selection and priority boarding are covered on BA operated flights, including for AA tickets and/or AA status holders.
Originally Posted by mvoight
(Post 31900881)
Speaking of the British, who owned the tea which was dumped in Boston Harbor?
Logic seems to indicate it would not have been the British Government who started the tea tax, so why punish someone else? |
The US DOT rules generally state that the baggage policy of the "first marketing carrier" shall apply to the entire ticket unless the first marketing carrier decides to apply the baggage rules of the most significant marketing carrier. So in any case, the OP should have gotten the AA TATL fee schedule for bags if you book AA codeshares and the first flight you flew was an AA TATL flight. The DOT also says that the bag fee schedule has to be the same every time you check in, e.g. had you managed to book an AA TATL flight to Europe, a 24h+ stopover, then an intra-Europe BA flight on the same ticket, you would be charged according to the AA TATL fee schedule ($60 for the first bag in BE) when you check in with BA for the intra-Europe flight.
It gets complicated when you bring frequent flyer program waivers into the mix. The DOT says the airlines can make their own rules about when they waive a bag fee, as long as when you are charged a fee, you are charged according to the fee schedule of the FMC. So the airlines are free to say that if you are on a BA-operated flight you don't get any frequent flier waivers. However, the DOT also says that the bag fees displayed on your receipt are binding, as long as they are in compliance with the above rules. So if you have a receipt showing a $0 bag fee, you should be charged a $0 bag fee. I would not expect BA agents to know this rule and know to waive the bag fee when presented with the receipt though. The previous thread on this issue on an AA codeshare operated by AS seems to indicate that refunds on erroneously charged bag fees should be filed with the operating carrier that charged the fee, which makes sense since they are responsible for the check-in employees that charged the fee. However, be prepared for BA to not have a particularly in-depth understanding of DOT rules. |
Can the poster not dispute the charge with his credit card issuer?
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Originally Posted by USA_flyer
(Post 31903093)
Can the poster not dispute the charge with his credit card issuer?
But which charge is disputable? The second charge from BA where BA said you must pay $X for the baggage fee and the OP said (under protest) OK charge that to this credit card and then received the goods/services which s/he agreed to pay for or The first charge from AA where s/he paid for the ticket with baggage included and did not receive the full goods/service that he agreed to pay $Y for. I would think that the AA charge is partially disputable as they sold a service which was not fully provided. |
Originally Posted by 3544quebec
(Post 31903132)
But which charge is disputable?
The second charge from BA where BA said you must pay $X for the baggage fee and the OP said (under protest) OK charge that to this credit card and then received the goods/services which s/he agreed to pay for or The first charge from AA where s/he paid for the ticket with baggage included and did not receive the full goods/service that he agreed to pay $Y for. I would think that the AA charge is partially disputable as they sold a service which was not fully provided. I would dispute the BA charge and suggest they go after AA for the money as they issued the ticket including baggage. This is between AA and BA with the OP caught in the middle, this is not his/her problem. |
Originally Posted by USA_flyer
(Post 31903139)
Can you partially dispute a charge with a credit card?
I would dispute the BA charge and suggest they go after AA for the money as they issued the ticket including baggage. This is between AA and BA with the OP caught in the middle, this is not his/her problem. |
1. I would demand from BA directly to refund the baggage charge!
2. If BA does not comply, I would file a DOT complaint against BA and turn in the original e-ticket receipt with the indicated baggage allowance. 3. If BA does not comply, of course also initiate a chargeback. |
Originally Posted by VFR
(Post 31901888)
The US DOT rules generally state that the baggage policy of the "first marketing carrier" shall apply to the entire ticket unless the first marketing carrier decides to apply the baggage rules of the most significant marketing carrier. So in any case, the OP should have gotten the AA TATL fee schedule for bags if you book AA codeshares and the first flight you flew was an AA TATL flight. The DOT also says that the bag fee schedule has to be the same every time you check in, e.g. had you managed to book an AA TATL flight to Europe, a 24h+ stopover, then an intra-Europe BA flight on the same ticket, you would be charged according to the AA TATL fee schedule ($60 for the first bag in BE) when you check in with BA for the intra-Europe flight.
It gets complicated when you bring frequent flyer program waivers into the mix. The DOT says the airlines can make their own rules about when they waive a bag fee, as long as when you are charged a fee, you are charged according to the fee schedule of the FMC. So the airlines are free to say that if you are on a BA-operated flight you don't get any frequent flier waivers. However, the DOT also says that the bag fees displayed on your receipt are binding, as long as they are in compliance with the above rules. So if you have a receipt showing a $0 bag fee, you should be charged a $0 bag fee. I would not expect BA agents to know this rule and know to waive the bag fee when presented with the receipt though. The previous thread on this issue on an AA codeshare operated by AS seems to indicate that refunds on erroneously charged bag fees should be filed with the operating carrier that charged the fee, which makes sense since they are responsible for the check-in employees that charged the fee. However, be prepared for BA to not have a particularly in-depth understanding of DOT rules. If it's true that the system requires them to charge when it shouldn't, and the only recourse is to request a refund, this should be reported to the DOT even if BA easily grants the refund. A mistake by an agent is one thing, but a repeated, systematic violation of DOT regulations needs to be remedied -- the DOT will almost certainly instruct them to fix this. However, I suspect that this was more likely to be an agent who simply didn't know how to do it and was too busy (or couldn't be bothered) to ask for help from someone who did. |
I ended up filing the complaint with BA, hope to hear from them shortly.
Originally Posted by VegasGambler
(Post 31903530)
BA is a large company that operates all over the world. I'm sure that they are well aware of all the regulations that they are required to comply with, particularly in the US (where they do a lot of business). Whether the front-line agents know is a different story, but of course that's true with US-based airlines as well.
If it's true that the system requires them to charge when it shouldn't, and the only recourse is to request a refund, this should be reported to the DOT even if BA easily grants the refund. A mistake by an agent is one thing, but a repeated, systematic violation of DOT regulations needs to be remedied -- the DOT will almost certainly instruct them to fix this. However, I suspect that this was more likely to be an agent who simply didn't know how to do it and was too busy (or couldn't be bothered) to ask for help from someone who did. I did not consider the DOT complaint regardless of refund, I think I will do that given the situation of "we can't override it even if you have that receipt". |
Originally Posted by lowfareair
(Post 31903592)
I ended up filing the complaint with BA, hope to hear from them shortly.
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Originally Posted by carlosdca
(Post 31900134)
A couple of things here.
Basic Economy for elites works different on AA and BA. With AA basic economy, elites on basic economy can not select a seat in advance, but do keep the free bag benefit. With BA basic economy, elites keep the privilege of selecting a seat BUT have to pay for bags. <snip> This sort of confusion about extra charges will have happened before. Will be people who book these fares and do not realise the flight booked is acodeshare until at the airport/check-in |
Originally Posted by Mwenenzi
(Post 31904692)
With such a close relationship between AA & BA on transatlantic flight having different perks for status on these low cost basic would seem a failing. Would be simplifier if were the same. But then would have to follow on for AA domestic and BA domestic/EU flights.
This sort of confusion about extra charges will have happened before. Will be people who book these fares and do not realise the flight booked is acodeshare until at the airport/check-in |
This is one area where alliances have failed to meet expectations. I wish each alliance had rule commonality for baggage, advance seat selection, fare types, and so forth, especially given the degree of codesharing now in place. There's no way the average passenger, or even a frequent one, can possibly remember all of these rules, so I'm guessing most just pay and move on. I have a similar complaint about hotel chains. One needs an advanced degree in mathematics to know if you get a free breakfast at a Marriott property. I'm semi-joking of course, but I do have to carry a matrix with me so I can remember what I'm entitled to at each of the 10+ brands. I feel like baggage rules and such across alliances are similar. It shouldn't be this difficult.
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