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Originally Posted by moondog
(Post 28201148)
Here's one example (that I found via Google, btw):
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/ameri...ade-space.html http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/28200694-post156.html |
Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28201205)
That was a very, very different and highly unique situation-- nothing whatsoever to do with this subject, obviously-- there was actual DOT involvement-- huge difference from a routine compensation arrangement with AA CR (or even a routine AA corp security resolution.) No NDAs.
http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/28200694-post156.html |
Originally Posted by moondog
(Post 28201338)
There's no need for you to remind me of a post I made less than 2 hours ago.:D I am not inclined to discuss specific NDA situations I'm aware of because my doing so would demonstrate that silence was broken by the recipients. So, instead, I resorted to Google. While fake bookings and employee negligence are different subjects, I'm not sure how you could conclude either is more or less NDA worthy.
Ask around :) |
AA made a big mistake here. 100% to blame. If AA can't operate without understanding TWOV (or better said, have it's staff understand it) then China should revoke them flight rights.
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Originally Posted by YuropFlyer
(Post 28201541)
AA made a big mistake here. 100% to blame. If AA can't operate without understanding TWOV (or better said, have it's staff understand it) then China should revoke them flight rights.
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Go tell that UA :D
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28193819)
No one should.
But the rule is you must be in transit to a 3rd Country, you were not. Flew many TWOV trips to China before getting an actual visa because US agents get this so wrong. DL has the same issue. I would fly AA LAX-PVG and then book PVG-HKG-LAX coming back. AA agent one time gave me the TIAMTIC code that should be referenced. |
Update: haven't heard a word from AA. Complaint submitted Sunday Night.
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Originally Posted by FlyingJay
(Post 28201861)
Update: haven't heard a word from AA. Complaint submitted Sunday Night.
I feel like this thread will no longer offer any new information except for the OP's updates or a major change happens. |
Originally Posted by Dave Noble
(Post 28197174)
When it comes to permitting travel to the country, the airline is required to ensure that the passenger meets the documented terms for admission to that country - allow an ineligible person to travel and the airline get penalised...
Originally Posted by Often1
(Post 28197222)
AA's sole interest in checking documents is to protect itself from transporting someone determined by PRC authorities to be improperly documented. AA is subject to substantial fines and the prospect of returning the individual to the US and having to chase the individual for the cost.
If Chinese immigration officials deny entry and send someone back to the U.S., what fines are levied on AA? Does AA track denied immigration entries and make a note in an employee's file? If either/both of these are true, I recognize why a check-in agent may hesitate to apply what the customer suggests (entering China as a transit point in TIMATIC), since they may be the recipient of consequences associated with an incorrect boarding. |
Originally Posted by ianmanka
(Post 28201896)
This is an element of this discussion that I think is getting lost in the other posts -- what is the penalty to AA and/or the check-in agent if they approve documents that shouldn't have been approved per TIMATIC?
If Chinese immigration officials deny entry and send someone back to the U.S., what fines are levied on AA? Does AA track denied immigration entries and make a note in an employee's file? If either/both of these are true, I recognize why a check-in agent may hesitate to apply what the customer suggests (entering China as a transit point in TIMATIC), since they may be the recipient of consequences associated with an incorrect boarding. |
Originally Posted by moondog
(Post 28201947)
It would make more sense to ask what is the penalty for wrongly denying purchased transportation to eligible passengers since that is the topic of this thread.
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Originally Posted by moondog
(Post 28201947)
It would make more sense to ask what is the penalty for wrongly denying purchased transportation to eligible passengers since that is the topic of this thread.
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Originally Posted by FlyingJay
(Post 28201861)
Update: haven't heard a word from AA. Complaint submitted Sunday Night.
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28193924)
I, too, am told that such letter is completely irrelevant.Or, if one disagrees with that, 100% irrelevant to an check-in agent who is to be guided by only by TIMATIC
[KVS Tool 8.4.6/Diamond - TIMATIC: Expert Mode: TIRULES/R32] Code:
R32) TWOV |
Originally Posted by KVS
(Post 28202498)
And the agent would see that:
[KVS Tool 8.4.6/Diamond - TIMATIC: Expert Mode: TIRULES/R32] Code:
R32) TWOV |
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The system bears mentioning a couple of other points:
For TWOV purposes, China cares only about the plane that brings you into the country and the one that flies you out of the country. What happens before and after that is not the issue. LAX-NRT-PEK-LAX brings you from Japan and takes you to USA. Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan are treated as three separate countries for TWOV purposes. |
Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28201365)
Easily-- because I know what I'm talking about.
Ask around :) |
I don't see why the airlines could not come together and built a better decision support software where all it needs to know is your full travel itinerary information including the date and whether or not you plan to enter the country. The input travel itinerary could consists of multiple reservations or a single reservation (however many you wish) all pulled from some global distribution system. For example, the input to the software would be the sequence: (JFK,date,N/A), (NRT,date,no), (HKG,date,yes), (PEK,date,no)....,(Airport#N,date,yes), your passport, and the output would be a set of VISA requirements for each airport in the itinerary i.e. (JFK,no),(NRT,no),(HKG,no),(PEK,no),...(Airport#N, no).
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Originally Posted by IggySD
(Post 28202757)
Yeah, there's close to zero chance of an NDA. When this happened to me in January I requested a refund through the automatic system. When CS emailed me back apologizing for the situation a day after it occurred I asked them to look into the refund and give me an estimated timeline and they replied the next day that they had resubmitted it and it should process soon. I think I had it within a week. That part was straightforward and I received no pushback at all. I am EXP so don't know if that had any impact but if so I expect that it just led to faster resolution rather than a different outcome.
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28193710)
This is most definitely -not- my forte, but I'll take a stab at it.
I think you were given wrong explanation, in a way. TWOV requires travel to a third Country-- not a return to origin, so LAX to PVG followed by a return of PVG-NRT-LAX-- without that stopover in NRT, is, in fact, not a proper use of China TWOV. You needed a actual Visa because you were actually visiting China. But will defer to actual experts here. The problem is that airline agents sometimes insist that China is the destination and not a transit when entering information into TIMATIC. China can be the destination for fare calculation, but Chinese officials don't care about that. They only look at the segment bringing you into China and the segment on which you will depart from China. |
Originally Posted by nutwpinut
(Post 28193741)
I have not done it, but I have been thinking of doing it as a mileage run and from my understanding this is legitimate for 72 hours or less; however, it is a known risk the FAs and GAs do not know the rules correctly.
Ooops, I'm sorry were you on the 72 or 144? There's also a 24 hour version available to more passports that allows you to fly to/through multiple cities in China. |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 28202994)
This is wrong. Check the big sticky thread on TWOV in the China forum.
The problem is that airline agents sometimes insist that China is the destination and not a transit when entering information into TIMATIC. China can be the destination for fare calculation, but Chinese officials don't care about that. They only look at the segment bringing you into China and the segment on which you will depart from China. If it is true that the rules for a visa free travel to China permits visa free travel where China is the destination of ticket rather than a stopover/transit point en route to actual destination, it would be good to see where it is stated officially It would also seem strange that it would not just state that visa free travel is permitted for tourists staying 144 hours or less rather than referring it as a transit visa waiver |
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
(Post 28202994)
This is wrong. Check the big sticky thread on TWOV in the China forum.
The problem is that airline agents sometimes insist that China is the destination and not a transit when entering information into TIMATIC. China can be the destination for fare calculation, but Chinese officials don't care about that. They only look at the segment bringing you into China and the segment on which you will depart from China. It seems to me that the OP should contact the division of IATA that runs TIMATIC and see what they say. It's a serious situation because the agents are going to personally get in trouble if they allow something that is incorrect. The airline can be fined significant sums and the employee would be disciplined. It's easy for us to sit in this forum and criticize. I suggest you go and do the agent's job for a day. You would rely on TIMATIC too and not on a passenger who is telling you to "trick" the system by putting in the data in a strange way. |
Originally Posted by Dave Noble
(Post 28203011)
Have you an authoritative source to support the assertion that it is incorrect rather than a thread on FT
If it is true that the rules for a visa free travel to China permits visa free travel where China is the destination of ticket rather than a stopover/transit point en route to actual destination, it would be good to see where it is stated officially |
Originally Posted by anacapamalibu
(Post 28203031)
Expert: MSPeconomist is correct.
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble
(Post 28203011)
Have you an authoritative source to support the assertion that it is incorrect rather than a thread on FT
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble
(Post 28203039)
I do not believe that the poster is an authoritative source
I do not believe Dave Noble is an authoritative source. :D |
Originally Posted by Dave Noble
(Post 28203039)
I do not believe that the poster is an authoritative source
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Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28200545)
Completely correct, thank you for referencing/including the context of my remarks.
Originally Posted by JonNYC
(Post 28200545)
I can virtually *guarantee* that there will continue to be this issue-- be it very rare, occasionally, etc for the foreseeable future.
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble
(Post 28203011)
If it is true that the rules for a visa free travel to China permits visa free travel where China is the destination of ticket rather than a stopover/transit point en route to actual destination, it would be good to see where it is stated officially
make US code look like a short story. But I will find it , in the meantime. 3rd party confirmation http://lawandborder.com/china-72-hou...t-visa-waiver/ 3. Traveler must have a ticket proving onward travel to a “third country or region” (not the originating country and not in Mainland China) with a confirmed date and seat within the time limit. The arriving and departing tickets may be on different airlines. For the 72-hour program, the onward flight must leave from the same city where you arrived. For the 144-hour program, the onward transportation may be from any of the designated ports in Shanghai, Nanjing Lukou Airport, or Hangzhou Xiaoshan Airport. If required, you must also possess a visa for the third country or region. The term “region” here is a term of art which refers to disputed states (e.g., Taiwan) and subnational entities (e.g., Hong Kong and Macau). So, for example, New York -> Beijing -> Hong Kong would qualify. (But note that New York -> Beijing -> Guam does not qualify, per Timatic). Note that the third country or region must not be the originating country. For example, New York -> Beijing -> New York does not qualify, but New York -> Beijing -> Tokyo -> New York does qualify. Duration of stop in third country is irrelevant (e.g., LAX ->PVG -> NRT -> LAX is OK, even if NRT stop is for only a few hours). Your departing transportation must not make a further stop in China, even if you are not required to change planes. For example, Beijing -> Kunming -> Hanoi doesn’t qualify. |
Originally Posted by anacapamalibu
(Post 28202968)
In this day and age of revenue based status, its unlikely an AA EXP would be put into a position to post on this forum circumstances of this sort.
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Unless someone can provide an official interpretation by Chinese immigration, there is no written official interpretation that contradicts the common sense meaning. Also, there is no Embassy in Los Angeles. It's in DC.
Even then, Chinese rules are written in a vague way to benefit the Chinese government in an individual interpretation. Some people, perhaps none of those who have used a connection in Hong Kong or Narita as a purported destination are ot on a Chinese government watch list or didn't catch the guy processing a Visa on a bad day. We travel for fun and miles but how can we expect a gate agent to put their job on the line and state that Narita is a destination when it's obviously not. |
Originally Posted by C17PSGR
(Post 28203334)
Unless someone can provide an official interpretation by Chinese immigration, there is no written official interpretation that contradicts the common sense meaning. Also, there is no Embassy in Los Angeles. It's in DC.
上海、江苏、浙江三省（市）于1月30日起施行部分国家人员144小时过境免签政策 中华人民共和国公安部公告 为推动上海建设具有全球影响力的科技创新中心，构建更为便捷宽松的出入境软环境，经国务院批准，在上海、江 苏、浙江三省市实施部分国家外国人144小时过境免办签证政策。现将有关事项公布如下： 一、适用政策国家名单 奥地利、比利时、捷克、丹麦、爱沙尼亚、芬兰、法国、德国、希腊、匈牙利、冰岛、意大利、拉脱维亚、立陶宛 、卢森堡、马耳他、荷兰、波兰、葡萄牙、斯洛伐克、斯洛文尼亚、西班牙、瑞典、瑞士、俄罗斯、英国、爱尔兰 、塞浦路斯、保加利亚、罗马尼亚、乌克兰、美国、加拿大、巴西、墨西哥、阿根廷、智利、澳大利亚、新西兰、 韩国、日本、新加坡、文莱、阿联酋、卡塔尔、塞尔维亚、克罗地亚、波黑、黑山、马其顿和阿尔巴 尼亚。 二、适用条件 上述国家人员持有效国际旅行证件和144小时内确定日期、座位前往第三国（地区）的联程客票。 三、入出境口岸 过境外国人可选择从上海浦东国际机场、虹桥国际机场、上海港国际客运中心、吴淞口国际邮轮港、上海铁路口岸 或者南京禄口国际机场、杭州萧山国际机场中任一口岸入境或出境。 四、停留区域及时间 符合条件免签入境人员可在上海市、江苏省和浙江省行政区域免签停留144小时。 外国人免签过境停留，应当遵守中国法律规定，不得超过准予停留时限或者超出准许停留区域范围。 本公告政策内容自2016年1月30日起实施。 They're also decent at fielding phone calls: +86 21 3136 6100 |
Originally Posted by moondog
(Post 28203407)
Here's Shanghai immigration's policy:
上海、江苏、浙江三省（市）于1月30日起施行部分国家人员144小时过境免签政策 中华人民共和国公安部公告 为推动上海建设具有全球影响力的科技创新中心，构建更为便捷宽松的出入境软环境，经国务院批准，在上海、江 苏、浙江三省市实施部分国家外国人144小时过境免办签证政策。现将有关事项公布如下： 一、适用政策国家名单 奥地利、比利时、捷克、丹麦、爱沙尼亚、芬兰、法国、德国、希腊、匈牙利、冰岛、意大利、拉脱维亚、立陶宛 、卢森堡、马耳他、荷兰、波兰、葡萄牙、斯洛伐克、斯洛文尼亚、西班牙、瑞典、瑞士、俄罗斯、英国、爱尔兰 、塞浦路斯、保加利亚、罗马尼亚、乌克兰、美国、加拿大、巴西、墨西哥、阿根廷、智利、澳大利亚、新西兰、 韩国、日本、新加坡、文莱、阿联酋、卡塔尔、塞尔维亚、克罗地亚、波黑、黑山、马其顿和阿尔巴 尼亚。 二、适用条件 上述国家人员持有效国际旅行证件和144小时内确定日期、座位前往第三国（地区）的联程客票。 三、入出境口岸 过境外国人可选择从上海浦东国际机场、虹桥国际机场、上海港国际客运中心、吴淞口国际邮轮港、上海铁路口岸 或者南京禄口国际机场、杭州萧山国际机场中任一口岸入境或出境。 四、停留区域及时间 符合条件免签入境人员可在上海市、江苏省和浙江省行政区域免签停留144小时。 外国人免签过境停留，应当遵守中国法律规定，不得超过准予停留时限或者超出准许停留区域范围。 本公告政策内容自2016年1月30日起实施。 They're also decent at fielding phone calls: +86 21 3136 6100 Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang provinces (cities) on January 30 from the implementation of some national staff 144 hours transit visa policy Notice of the Ministry of Public Security of the People 's Republic of China To promote the construction of Shanghai has a global influence of science and technology innovation center, to build a more convenient and relaxed environment of entry and exit, approved by the State Council, in Shanghai, Jiangsu, Zhejiang provinces and cities to implement some countries foreigners 144 hours transit visa policy. The relevant matters are published as follows: First, the list of applicable countries Austria, Belgium, the Czech Republic, the United States of America, the United States of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the United States of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Britain, Ireland, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, USA, Canada, Brazil, Mexico, Argentina, Chile, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea, Japan, Singapore, Brunei, UAE, Qatar, Serbia, Macedonia and Albania. Second, the applicable conditions The above-mentioned national staff hold valid international travel documents and within 14 hours to determine the date, seat to the third country (region) of the joint ticket. Third, the entry and exit port Transit foreigners can choose from Shanghai Pudong International Airport, Hongqiao International Airport, Shanghai International Passenger Transport Center, Wusongkou International Cruise Port, Shanghai Railway Port or Nanjing Lukou International Airport, Hangzhou Xiaoshan International Airport in any port entry or exit. Fourth, stay area and time Those who meet the conditions of visa-free entry can stay in Shanghai, Jiangsu Province and Zhejiang Province, the administrative area of free stay 144 hours. Foreigners who are allowed to stay in transit shall comply with Chinese law and shall not exceed the permitted time limit or beyond the permitted area. The contents of this announcement policy since January 30, 2016 from the implementation. |
Originally Posted by FlyingJay
(Post 28201861)
Update: haven't heard a word from AA. Complaint submitted Sunday Night.
|
Originally Posted by moondog
(Post 28203407)
Here's Shanghai immigration's policy:
上海、江苏、浙江三省（市）于1月30日起施行部分国家人员144小时过境免签政策 中华人民共和国公安部公告 为推动上海建设具有全球影响力的科技创新中心，构建更为便捷宽松的出入境软环境，经国务院批准，在上海、江 苏、浙江三省市实施部分国家外国人144小时过境免办签证政策。现将有关事项公布如下： 一、适用政策国家名单 奥地利、比利时、捷克、丹麦、爱沙尼亚、芬兰、法国、德国、希腊、匈牙利、冰岛、意大利、拉脱维亚、立陶宛 、卢森堡、马耳他、荷兰、波兰、葡萄牙、斯洛伐克、斯洛文尼亚、西班牙、瑞典、瑞士、俄罗斯、英国、爱尔兰 、塞浦路斯、保加利亚、罗马尼亚、乌克兰、美国、加拿大、巴西、墨西哥、阿根廷、智利、澳大利亚、新西兰、 韩国、日本、新加坡、文莱、阿联酋、卡塔尔、塞尔维亚、克罗地亚、波黑、黑山、马其顿和阿尔巴 尼亚。 二、适用条件 上述国家人员持有效国际旅行证件和144小时内确定日期、座位前往第三国（地区）的联程客票。 三、入出境口岸 过境外国人可选择从上海浦东国际机场、虹桥国际机场、上海港国际客运中心、吴淞口国际邮轮港、上海铁路口岸 或者南京禄口国际机场、杭州萧山国际机场中任一口岸入境或出境。 四、停留区域及时间 符合条件免签入境人员可在上海市、江苏省和浙江省行政区域免签停留144小时。 外国人免签过境停留，应当遵守中国法律规定，不得超过准予停留时限或者超出准许停留区域范围。 本公告政策内容自2016年1月30日起实施。 They're also decent at fielding phone calls: +86 21 3136 6100 |
Originally Posted by nutwpinut
(Post 28203478)
Where did you find this? I've been trying to find it.
|
Quick translation:
144H visa for Shanghai, Jiangsu, and Zhejiang effective 1/30 Notice: In order to build Shanghai into a technology center, as well as to create an easier international transit hub, the three jurisdictions of Shanghai, Jiangsu, and Zhejiang will offer 144H TWOV for travelers of certain nationalities, provided that they meet following criteria: 1) Permitted nationalities -- (long list includes USA, Canada, Mexico...) 2) Traveler must possess confirmed onward ticket to a third country within 144 H. 3) Valid entry/exit points -- PVG, SHA, (oceangoing ship and railway locations) ... NKG, and HGH 4) Holder of TWOV must stay within the three jurisdictions during the 144H period. They may not stay longer than 144H, nor travel outside the three above jurisdictions. The above is effective Jan 30, 2016 * * * The rules above do not stipulate what constitutes a stay, a stopover, or how to determine the ultimate destination. As long as the onward ticket is for a third country, the traveler qualifies for TWOV. OP is right; AA is wrong. |
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