Dedicated thread for RESPECTFUL discussions of AA labor contract issues (2012)
#301
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Yep, and thanks for sharing; nice blog! Doesn't genuinely have much to do with discussion about pilot wages or labor, IMO.
Chris Menno is an AA 737 pilot who transitioned to the 737 from the Mad Dog. His blog's got a lot of articles about the differences between them.
http://jethead.wordpress.com/
http://jethead.wordpress.com/
#302
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What is there to be respectful about?
I am confused. The current pilot actions do not admit of "well they are both to blame" explanation. There is one simple truth--best captured by the expression "even an old dog knows the difference between when he has been accidentally tripped over and when he has been deliberately kicked". These maintenance delays overwhelmingly are phony. The are purposeful actions intended to harm operations. And they really harm passengers. There is ZERO excuse for this behavior. It is no more no less than bullying by pilots who for too long have felt entitled. The airline is not about customers it is about them! Worse, to cite another dog expression: even small puppies know not to soil where they sleep. But that is what the pilots are doing.
I hate being held hostage by belligerent troublemakers who dishonor their profession.
So why again should we be respectful towards the pilots???
I hate being held hostage by belligerent troublemakers who dishonor their profession.
So why again should we be respectful towards the pilots???
#303
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I think it's a request to be respectful to one another. I agree that the pilots doing this (remember, it's only a fraction of them that are involved in the shenanigans) deserve just about as much much respect as you suggest.
Cheers.
Cheers.
#304
Join Date: May 2004
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And another side of the story: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/am...oxic-stew.html
It is important to view events factually. Now you can see why pilots at AA are becoming less willing to deal with passengers and finding that they have to document their actions.
It is important to view events factually. Now you can see why pilots at AA are becoming less willing to deal with passengers and finding that they have to document their actions.
#305
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And another side of the story: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/am...oxic-stew.html
It is important to view events factually. Now you can see why pilots at AA are becoming less willing to deal with passengers and finding that they have to document their actions.
It is important to view events factually. Now you can see why pilots at AA are becoming less willing to deal with passengers and finding that they have to document their actions.
First, we all know that there are legitimate delays, and this is what the OP is referring to there. However, ignored are the obvious intentional-delay delays. Missing decals, burned out lightbulbs? Seriously?
The following posts have nothing to add, and just "screw 'em."
If this is really "another side" and represents the "facts" it makes the pilots look very bad, indeed. It's sad that that is presumably their forum to show their side, and even there they look very bad.
Cheers.
#306
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 519
Well, since you are reading with what appears to be no interest in seeing both sides, I am not surprised by your immediate reaction. This pilot got the passengers to the gate early and still got verbally assaulted by someone who believes the hype. That's not ok, and not respectful. So, while those influenced by the misinformation think it's ok to verbally assault innocent professionals, others are surprised when there is negative responses from those getting assaulted?
#307
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Well, since you are reading with what appears to be no interest in seeing both sides, I am not surprised by your immediate reaction. This pilot got the passengers to the gate early and still got verbally assaulted by someone who believes the hype. That's not ok, and not respectful. So, while those influenced by the misinformation think it's ok to verbally assault innocent professionals, others are surprised when there is negative responses from those getting assaulted?
Cheers.
#308
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And another side of the story: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/am...oxic-stew.html
It is important to view events factually. Now you can see why pilots at AA are becoming less willing to deal with passengers and finding that they have to document their actions.
It is important to view events factually. Now you can see why pilots at AA are becoming less willing to deal with passengers and finding that they have to document their actions.
I would suppose for pilots whose flights operate on time, have normal taxi times and maintenance can find something to fix when they are called, there are probably less reasons to 'document.'
As to dealing with pax and saying goodbye 'land and stand' it sounds like that has been a pilot choice for some time.
I feel sorry for the pilots who are doing their job professionally. They not only have to deal with some selfish colleagues in the cockpit, but they are going to be a target of passenger anger.
#309
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And another side of the story: http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/am...oxic-stew.html
It is important to view events factually. Now you can see why pilots at AA are becoming less willing to deal with passengers and finding that they have to document their actions.
It is important to view events factually. Now you can see why pilots at AA are becoming less willing to deal with passengers and finding that they have to document their actions.
#310
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 519
No, I don't expect many of you to understand because your minds are made up to assume the worst when you are really operating on misinformation provided by others.
Documentation by pilots is now taking place to prove both the actual maintenance problems and the lack of culpability of the pilots with regard to other operational failures (like weather). It's a reaction to the bad press that convinced people to the point of committing verbal assault. And it's necessary to avoid loss of license.
It's not just the pilots. You have 11,000 mechanics and ground people just sent WARN notices who don't feel motivated to run when a normal maintenance request is put in. And you have the normal dysfunction that went unchecked for years because pilots would step up and keep reminding them to do their job. That has stopped. So, it's not just the pilots.
But I don't see anyone here acknowledging that it's not just the pilots; that management has a big part in this operational failure. I don't see quotes from letters to AA management; rather only letters complaining about pilots--again just trying to ensure that both sides are actually voiced and heard respectfully.
Documentation by pilots is now taking place to prove both the actual maintenance problems and the lack of culpability of the pilots with regard to other operational failures (like weather). It's a reaction to the bad press that convinced people to the point of committing verbal assault. And it's necessary to avoid loss of license.
It's not just the pilots. You have 11,000 mechanics and ground people just sent WARN notices who don't feel motivated to run when a normal maintenance request is put in. And you have the normal dysfunction that went unchecked for years because pilots would step up and keep reminding them to do their job. That has stopped. So, it's not just the pilots.
But I don't see anyone here acknowledging that it's not just the pilots; that management has a big part in this operational failure. I don't see quotes from letters to AA management; rather only letters complaining about pilots--again just trying to ensure that both sides are actually voiced and heard respectfully.
#311
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 519
This is not a dig or an attempt to be a wise-a## here but I'm genuinely interested in what your stake is in all of this. From your posts I'd say that you're firmly behind the pilots and it leads me to wonder if you have any connection to all this? I'm just looking for something that sheds light on why you (seemingly) defend them at most junctures. Thanks.
And I am management; but I can recognize BAD management. That is AA!
Last edited by dstan; Sep 30, 2012 at 10:19 pm Reason: redacted personal exchange
#312
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No, I don't expect many of you to understand because your minds are made up to assume the worst when you are really operating on misinformation provided by others.
Documentation by pilots is now taking place to prove both the actual maintenance problems and the lack of culpability of the pilots with regard to other operational failures (like weather). It's a reaction to the bad press that convinced people to the point of committing verbal assault. And it's necessary to avoid loss of license.
It's not just the pilots. You have 11,000 mechanics and ground people just sent WARN notices who don't feel motivated to run when a normal maintenance request is put in. And you have the normal dysfunction that went unchecked for years because pilots would step up and keep reminding them to do their job. That has stopped. So, it's not just the pilots.
But I don't see anyone here acknowledging that it's not just the pilots; that management has a big part in this operational failure. I don't see quotes from letters to AA management; rather only letters complaining about pilots--again just trying to ensure that both sides are actually voiced and heard respectfully.
Documentation by pilots is now taking place to prove both the actual maintenance problems and the lack of culpability of the pilots with regard to other operational failures (like weather). It's a reaction to the bad press that convinced people to the point of committing verbal assault. And it's necessary to avoid loss of license.
It's not just the pilots. You have 11,000 mechanics and ground people just sent WARN notices who don't feel motivated to run when a normal maintenance request is put in. And you have the normal dysfunction that went unchecked for years because pilots would step up and keep reminding them to do their job. That has stopped. So, it's not just the pilots.
But I don't see anyone here acknowledging that it's not just the pilots; that management has a big part in this operational failure. I don't see quotes from letters to AA management; rather only letters complaining about pilots--again just trying to ensure that both sides are actually voiced and heard respectfully.
Actually it sounds like your mind is made up. I think there has been quite a bit of discussion on this board about AMR's lack of leadership, poor management and poor way of communicating with employees.
The thread you are siting quoted one pilot who is now documenting via camera and several other pilots who said he should check with the union first.
You are certainly reiterating the pilots talking points.
At the end of the day operating an airline takes teamwork. If the pilots aren't going to remind other team members - and just take a one call and wait approach - the system is more likely to fail. Do you think it is OK for pilots to take the "let other people do their jobs approach" if they see the system failing?
#313
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Originally Posted by HRDiva
It is important to view events factually. Now you can see why pilots at AA are becoming less willing to deal with passengers and finding that they have to document their actions.
See this recent article: Another American Airlines pilot explains why AA is having so many delays
... What you’re seeing going on at AA is a lot like on your car. You normally ignore the minor squeaks or rattles and if you are going to get it fixed you wait until you get back home and have your local mechanic fix it. ...
If you ran your car like American Airlines has been running for the last two weeks if your car was leaking oil on the drive, write it up. Windshield wipers streaking, write it up. Shocks squeaking, write it up. Car pulls slightly to the left, write it up. ...
The other thing your seeing is guys that used to use their knowledge of the systems to keep it limping along or reset it are no longer helping out. Most of the time the fix is to just reboot the system and seeing if it does it again. Now guys get a message or the system doesn’t preform as it should then instead of trouble shooting and seeing if it does it again they just write it up, “No Bucks, No Buck Rogers” is the saying. ...
If you ran your car like American Airlines has been running for the last two weeks if your car was leaking oil on the drive, write it up. Windshield wipers streaking, write it up. Shocks squeaking, write it up. Car pulls slightly to the left, write it up. ...
The other thing your seeing is guys that used to use their knowledge of the systems to keep it limping along or reset it are no longer helping out. Most of the time the fix is to just reboot the system and seeing if it does it again. Now guys get a message or the system doesn’t preform as it should then instead of trouble shooting and seeing if it does it again they just write it up, “No Bucks, No Buck Rogers” is the saying. ...
Last edited by serfty; Sep 30, 2012 at 8:30 pm
#314
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You might be taken more seriously if you at least disclose yours, and you clearly, unquestionably have a bias. At least have the intestinal fortitude to disclose yours.
Regards
#315
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 519
Reply to elitetraveler post # 312: If you read the other pilot boards you will see hundreds of similar posts. I have also read the assertions on this board that they are greedy and a lot of other negative things.
The point the pilots are making is that they will now focus on doing their job and only their job. As we can now see, they did much more than that before. My opinion or your opinion about whether or not they should continue to step up and do the job of others means nothing. At the end of the day the fact that is even in question shows how bad the management is.
The point the pilots are making is that they will now focus on doing their job and only their job. As we can now see, they did much more than that before. My opinion or your opinion about whether or not they should continue to step up and do the job of others means nothing. At the end of the day the fact that is even in question shows how bad the management is.