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Originally Posted by Flying for Fun
(Post 30580847)
My last SEA-BOS was via SAN! ;) Followed by a BOS-PSP via SEA & SF0 and 6 other segments! Yes there was a companion certificate involved. :) lol
with all due respect, you and your travel patterns are nowhere near representative of either a typical business or leisure traveler, and AS can’t base their route selections and marketing strategies on an edge case |
Originally Posted by jrl767
(Post 30580910)
:rolleyes: we know, we know, we know with all due respect, you and your travel patterns are nowhere near representative of either a typical business or leisure traveler, and AS can’t base their route selections and marketing strategies on an edge case James |
VX couldn't make eastern flights work. There is little hope of an AS resurrection.
If I were betting on additional DAL cities, and I'm not, I'd go with SNA and SMF. |
Originally Posted by dayone
(Post 30582285)
VX couldn't make eastern flights work. There is little hope of an AS resurrection.
If I were betting on additional DAL cities, and I'm not, I'd go with SNA and SMF. |
Originally Posted by Toshbaf
(Post 30580729)
AS could add service to cities with no WN competition. Examples:
DAL-EWR DAL-ORD DAL-MIA (but would have to open a new MIA station) DAL-BDL (some risk and also Hartford is not currently an AS station) Oh yeah, there is this other airline based in Dallas that has hubs in Miami, New York and Chicago. Damned if I can remember the name though. Can someone help me out? |
Originally Posted by eponymous_coward
(Post 30586907)
You may not be aware of some obscure airports like FLL, MDW and LGA, but I assure you that WN does indeed compete in the Dallas-Chicago, Dallas-New York and Dallas-Greater Miami markets. Oh yeah, there is this other airline based in Dallas that has hubs in Miami, New York and Chicago. Damned if I can remember the name though. Can someone help me out? |
Originally Posted by eponymous_coward
(Post 30586907)
You may not be aware of some obscure airports like FLL, MDW and LGA, but I assure you that WN does indeed compete in the Dallas-Chicago, Dallas-New York and Dallas-Greater Miami markets. Oh yeah, there is this other airline based in Dallas that has hubs in Miami, New York and Chicago. Damned if I can remember the name though. Can someone help me out? That is exactly what Southwest thought when it served New York City by Islip but later realized that didn't cut it. Similarly, Alaska may find that DAL to EWR or ORD might be a good market to try. I'm not so certain that MIA would be that good. The limiting factor is the two gates. They have to maximize the assets. That's just like Paine Field in Everett. Eventually, they'll find out what makes money and what doesn't. With Paine Field, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually it is all 737-900ER service. |
Originally Posted by dayone
(Post 30582285)
VX couldn't make eastern flights work. There is little hope of an AS resurrection.
If I were betting on additional DAL cities, and I'm not, I'd go with SNA and SMF. E175, with a handful of empty seats in back, but 7 FC seats empty. Though with SkyWest flying it, there is less overhead, so maybe it's enough. This is my go to flight, so hope it sticks around, love the E175 :) |
Originally Posted by eponymous_coward
(Post 30586907)
Oh yeah, there is this other airline based in Dallas that has hubs in Miami, New York and Chicago. Damned if I can remember the name though. Can someone help me out? Braniff |
Originally Posted by Toshbaf
(Post 30586947)
That is exactly what United thought when it left JFK! They were aware of some airport like EWR. They later admitted that it was a mistake.
That is exactly what Southwest thought when it served New York City by Islip but later realized that didn't cut it. Similarly, Alaska may find that DAL to EWR or ORD might be a good market to try. I'm not so certain that MIA would be that good. The limiting factor is the two gates. They have to maximize the assets. That's just like Paine Field in Everett. Eventually, they'll find out what makes money and what doesn't. With Paine Field, I wouldn't be surprised if eventually it is all 737-900ER service. They saw that Dallas-Austin was going for a premium (like much of intra Texas at close to and often OVER $100 each way, on sale for $81 :rolleyes: ) AA was getting the price, WN was doing even better, and Virgin decided to do DAL-AUS. Maybe people just didn't know, but that was a huge flop. Their IT was not on the ball either, as (some) people were flying dirt cheap LGA-DAL via SFO and racking up some serious status points. Sir Richard Branson was quite a presence on Dallas local TV for just a bit when he was trying to get DAL, but for weeks if not months pax would truck on out to DFW not realizing they were supposed to be at DAL. |
Emailkid is basically right. It’s not like VX and AS didn’t actually try to make DAL work going east or with different destinations like AUS or LAS. It’s that with zero mindshare out of East Coast cities and 2 gates vs. 16 (or DFW) they will always be bit players in Dallas compared to WN and AA. Picking random places to fly like BDL or cities where other carriers are much larger like NYC/MIA/CHI is just asking to get killed. At least at AS focus cities or hubs you can offer a good package of destinations and potential feed from your market share on the other side of the route. |
Originally Posted by eponymous_coward
(Post 30588127)
At least at AS focus cities or hubs you can offer a good package of destinations and potential feed from your market share on the other side of the route. |
Hi -
If they do, it would make for a good MR. |
Originally Posted by wolfpacktrojan
(Post 30588873)
My initial thought when I saw this DAL expansion was that AS was going to offer super cheap Hawaii fares via SEA, SFO, and SAN to undercut WN’s Hawaii operation. I mean to say that DAL as part of a package of places like LAX, SEA, Hawaii, Mexico, EWR, BAL, etc. isn’t... terrible. |
Originally Posted by Toshbaf
(Post 30580808)
There are some that don't prefer MDW, LGA, or FLL.
Locals would know more but I think the ORD market over the MDW market is small. This includes those from Rockford and northern Chicago suburbs, like Niles. EWR does have a big market that prefers EWR to LGA. Those from West Orange, Saddle River, Morristown, and much most of Northern New Jersey. MIA does have a market that prefers MIA to FLL, mostly the city of Miami but not Broward County. So, DAL-EWR seems like the biggest market of the three over competing airports that are served by WN. One problem is that only O&D would fly the route. Not many from SEA, PDX, SFO, SJC, LAX, or SAN would want to fly to EWR via DAL. I do like the idea of DAL-ORD - it's shorter than DAL-east coast (and less risk), many prefer ORD over MDW and AS services ORD, and still large enough of a market and not too niche, but AS would rather just stick to a strategy of it's west coast markets to DAL. At this point, it's out of strategy. I'm more intrigued with the need to service DFW and DAL at the same time. I'm kind of surprised it can't just consolidate at DAL. |
Originally Posted by beyondhere
(Post 30591613)
... I'm more intrigued with the need to service DFW and DAL at the same time. I'm kind of surprised it can't just consolidate at DAL.
(2) “won’t” is AA code-shares and international feed (yes, a bone of contention for us in the FT community, but from an overall market standpoint probably far more significant to the airline as a business entity) |
Originally Posted by beyondhere
(Post 30591613)
I'm more intrigued with the need to service DFW and DAL at the same time. I'm kind of surprised it can't just consolidate at DAL.
Originally Posted by jrl767
(Post 30591696)
(1) “can’t” is mainly gates, as has been discussed almost ad infinitum upthread
(2) “won’t” is AA code-shares and international feed (yes, a bone of contention for us in the FT community, but from an overall market standpoint probably far more significant to the airline as a business entity) |
Originally Posted by beyondhere
(Post 30591613)
.....
I'm more intrigued with the need to service DFW and DAL at the same time. I'm kind of surprised it can't just consolidate at DAL. They are used to flying to DFW. I am surprised that business flyers don't jump on DAL, as it's closer to downtown Dallas (Fort Worth, not so much), and Plano area is probably better served by DFW. Flew SEA-DAL just this Friday on E175, and while coach was almost full, FC was only half full. Apparently not too many frequent flyers on this plane (and I suspect route). |
Yup... upgrade list on the SEA-DFW flights are 50-60 long but SEA-DAL is only about 12 long or less now in the off season... we are now seeing empty seats!
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New Delta and Alaska court filings responding to City's proposal
Apparently there are some additional court filings that occurred Friday in the three-way fight at Love Field, with Alaska and Delta responding to the City's proposal to use Alaska gates to accommodate Delta.
See this article: https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/n...est-delta.html Delta is suspicious of Alaska's recent expansion plans, and Alaska is like, "stay off my lawn". Haha. It's interesting that Alaska finds DAL that lucrative or necessary (I'm definitely happy about their proposed expanded flight options). Is this a case of sticking Delta in the eye, or does Alaska have serious long term plans for Dallas? |
Originally Posted by MJMLBBtoCPH
(Post 30679654)
Apparently there are some additional court filings that occurred Friday in the three-way fight at Love Field, with Alaska and Delta responding to the City's proposal to use Alaska gates to accommodate Delta. See this article: https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/n...est-delta.html The city's November idea This ordeal started years ago when Southwest Airlines Co. (NYSE: LUV) took over two gates from United Continental Holdings, Inc. (NYSE: UAL), giving Southwest 18 of the 20 gates at Love Field.Delta had an agreement with United to fly five daily flights back to its hub in Atlanta. When Southwest took over the gates, it tried to boot Delta off.Delta refused to leave. Also, Delta wanted to add eight more flights out of Love Field. Fearing retaliation from whatever side ended up losing the dispute, the city of Dallas sued all the airlines involved and asked the court to decide what to do.In November, Alaska was dragged into this case in a major way.In an attempt to accommodate Delta's request for eight more flights, the city looked at the flight schedules of both Southwest and Alaska. Southwest recently started averaging nearly 11 flights a day out of its 18 gates. Alaska, however, operated only 6.5 flights a day at its two gates on average.Therefore, the city reasoned, Delta's eight additional flights could be flown on Alaska's gates because the Seattle airline had time gaps in its schedule.The city added that an Alaska representative was deposed on Sept. 28 and stated the airline had no expansion plans at Love Field for the "foreseeable future."
Originally Posted by MJMLBBtoCPH
(Post 30679654)
Delta is suspicious of Alaska's recent expansion plans, and Alaska is like, "stay off my lawn". Haha. It's interesting that Alaska finds DAL that lucrative or necessary (I'm definitely happy about their proposed expanded flight options). Is this a case of sticking Delta in the eye, or does Alaska have serious long term plans for Dallas?
VX got AA's gates, and DL claimed squatter's rights to keep flying their 5 flights to ATL, back then on CRJ as "out of state" flights were capped to 56 pax capacity (IIRC). Dallas City Hall saw the writing on the wall when DL asked them for a ruling, and decided to do a preemptive lawsuit instead, thinking that DL's deep pockets would outgun whatever Dallas could put up. This has been dragging on for a long time, because when I was fortunate enough to meet the (recently) late former CEO Herb Kelleher he confidently said that he thought "we will win this." |
Originally Posted by MJMLBBtoCPH
(Post 30679654)
Delta is suspicious of Alaska's recent expansion plans, and Alaska is like, "stay off my lawn". Haha. It's interesting that Alaska finds DAL that lucrative or necessary (I'm definitely happy about their proposed expanded flight options). Is this a case of sticking Delta in the eye, or does Alaska have serious long term plans for Dallas? |
Originally Posted by sfozrhfco
(Post 30679953)
it looks like they just did it to mess up the city's plan and not because they really need/want to expand.
Southwest is always saying if some other airline isn't providing additional flights, surely they will. The impression given by AS before was that they had no interest in expanding, but that surely changed. If the city tries to cut down the 2.5 non Southwest gates at the airport, I would imagine there would be anti-trust lawsuits. |
Originally Posted by dmodemd
(Post 30682851)
Sure, but isn't it in the interest of the airport to provide the surrounding community with the most routes and frequency possible? Whatever gets more flights into the airport is a win for everyone. Southwest is always saying if some other airline isn't providing additional flights, surely they will. The impression given by AS before was that they had no interest in expanding, but that surely changed. If the city tries to cut down the 2.5 non Southwest gates at the airport, I would imagine there would be anti-trust lawsuits. VX flew to DCA and LGA, and AS had no interest in continuing those flights. And DL is squatting on 5 roundtrips to ATL - 4 x B717 and midday A320 or 319. - probalby changes depending on how many seats they sell. |
Originally Posted by EmailKid
(Post 30679813)
posted an article that read, in part, "The city added that an Alaska representative was deposed on Sept. 28 and stated the airline had no expansion plans at Love Field for the "foreseeable future."
Just my $0.02 worth, of course... |
Originally Posted by Snowdevil
(Post 30683056)
And at that time, the previous VP for Network Planning and Strategy was still with AS. That changed, and with changes in leadership come changes in planning.
Just my $0.02 worth, of course... I merely posted a part of www.bizjournals.com/ article where that was posted above my reply @:-) |
Originally Posted by EmailKid
(Post 30683103)
Um, why are you quoting me :confused: Those are NOT my words.
I merely posted a part of www.bizjournals.com/ article where that was posted above my reply @:-) |
Originally Posted by EmailKid
(Post 30592455)
Flew SEA-DAL just this Friday on E175, and while coach was almost full, FC was only half full. Apparently not too many frequent flyers on this plane (and I suspect route). |
Originally Posted by Snowdevil
(Post 30683301)
You cited the source, so I was quoting your post where it was referenced. Why is that an issue?
Originally Posted by FlyerTalk Rules
Deceptive, Dishonest, Illegal or Fraudulent PostingPosts that misquote or mischaracterize other posts or members, or contain deceptive, dishonest or knowingly inaccurate information are not allowed.Rule 15 |
Looking one and two days out, SEA/DAL
Tomorrow - F2 Y6 / F4 Y0 - pretty full flights, if not close to or oversold in the back. Wednesday - F4 Y6 / F3 Y1 - same. LAX/DAL Tomorrow - F2 Y0 / F0 Y6 / F6 Y7 - sounds like 2 of the 3 flights will be sold out. Once you're below Y7, you're pretty much good as full. |
Glad that planes are starting to fill up.
If you are going to Dallas proper DAL is much easier to get to and to navigate the airport. |
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My last DAL-SEA on Fri 1/18 was oversold. I volunteered and was first on the list but they managed to squeeze everyone on. Weight is usually a concern on this flight with high headwinds. We had to hold short of the runway 5 minutes to burn off enough fuel to make takeoff weight(!). It was a busy business week on Dallas. Flights were sold out well in advance. Every week there can be pretty different but SEA-DFW is always heavy load. SEA-DAL can vary.
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I just noticed starting in May that the morning SEA-DAL and afternoon DAL-SEA has switched to a mainline 737... yay!
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Originally Posted by dmodemd
(Post 30768563)
I just noticed starting in May that the morning SEA-DAL and afternoon DAL-SEA has switched to a mainline 737... yay!
Even more so with AS which has fewer FC seats on 737 than UA, where this has been discussed (u/g chances) quite a bit in a couple of threads. |
Interesting. They started with Airbuses but quickly pulled back to E175.
That's a lot of incremental seats to fill with no onward connectivity at the DAL end... |
Originally Posted by EmailKid
(Post 30768731)
While this does not apply to me, it does mean that upgrade chances for those eligible do DOWN.
Even more so with AS which has fewer FC seats on 737 than UA, where this has been discussed (u/g chances) quite a bit in a couple of threads. |
Originally Posted by Tracer_SEA
(Post 30768950)
That's a lot of incremental seats to fill with no onward connectivity at the DAL end...
Upgrades on the DAL-SEA afternoon flight have been getting harder to come by recently. More elites are catching on to this option for Dallas. |
Originally Posted by dmodemd
(Post 30769293)
I have heard people here and that I met on these flights that are actually using these as very useful WN feeders. There are many locations that are more conveniently served by WN through DAL at a reasonable price or cheaper than the AS/AA through DFW. AS may want to consider codesharing with WN or would that tick off AA?. ...
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One of those AS to WN connectors / and AA Award tickets out of DAL
I'm glad to see more variety in size of AS aircraft coming to DAL. I'm actually one of those AS to WN connectors as oftentimes its cheaper than the AA/AS codeshare. It's sometimes slightly more than taking WN all the way (though not always), but while WN is great for short haul flights, I try to avoid 4 hour flights on them.
Incidentally, for the first time earlier this week, I noticed AA was allowing me to use AA miles to buy AA award tickets on AS flights out of DAL!!! I don't know if this has been around awhile (I've never noticed it before). Usually AA has this hex on anything related to DAL, so I was quite surprised they have this set up in their award ticket system. ^ |
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