Flight attendant demanded that l delete the picture!
 

If l was out of line, l will accept it and not complain to the airline, so l'm seeking advice from more experienced travelers than myself. Here's what happened.

My husband and l were about to board a connecting flight (Air Berlin from Hamburg to SKG, originally booked through BA from LHR). Upon entering l saw a flight attendant welcoming everyone on board and offering candy, so l thought: nice touch. I've never been welcomed on board with candy before - so l took a picture. The only way l can describe the flight attendant's reaction and tone of voice was like a woman at boarding school with a ruler who was ready to smack me because she caught me being naughty. In the meanest most reprimanding voice she said, "You did not ask my permission to take my picture?" I was stunned and speechless, searching for words. I said "excuse me?" ( l'm thinking, is she really mad that l took a picture?) Mind you, we are still at the entrance to the plane. Last thing l would want is for her to throw me off the plane as a disruptive passenger. In any case, it happened so fast my brain couldn't formulate a response. Then she said "You should have asked. Delete it please." Looking me dead in the face, she waited for me to delete the photo, while the woman behind me is waiting to come in the plane. So l deleted it and my husband and l went to our seats. All throughout the flight, I felt totally humiliated just because of how she spoke to me. I am completely not against her telling me to delete the photo, but did she really need to speak to and adult like l was a 2 year old child? Is there a picture taking etiquette l didnt hear about? I know immigration check points and security areas are off limits for photos. Anything else l should know?

In contrast, a few days earlier l was on a Virgin Atlantic plane from New York to London and not only did those flight attendants pose for pictures, they took pictures for me in first class. So l never dreamed l would have this experience on Air Berlin. Interestingly, l received avrewuest from British Airways to complete a survey about my flight experience. Like l said, if I'm wrong l won't complain. What do you think?

Some people don't like having their picture taken...I've learned it is always best to ask.

It could have been worse.
Thrown Off a United Airlines Flight for Taking Pictures!

So you met a grumpy FA. It could happen anywhere. 10 bucks that if you had asked, you would get permission. Oh, and no point complaining in a BA survey, if you really want to complain get in touch with AB directly. If would not expect anything other than a nice e-mail stating she was in the right asking for it to be deleted.

There's always "pretend deleting".

As an aside if a crime of some sort's been committed by taking the picture then the picture itself is evidence. In some countries (e.g. the UK) even the police don't have the authority to demand you delete a picture.

That said, it's precious little comfort if you find yourself stood at the gate watching your plane depart.

As this is not a trip report and OP seems to be asking if they should complain I will move this over to the airberlin forum.

Moomba
Moderator: Trip Reports

I think it's common courtesy, and a respect of the personal privacy of others, to ask before taking a photo of an individual (as opposed to a crowd shot).

Or in this case, frame the shot so that you capture the candy gift without capturing the cabin crew member's face.

I am not sure if this is grounds to complain to the airline... Some people really do not like having their picture taken without asking for permission first. I once took a photo of a particularly impressive doner kebab rotating meat "thing" (I think it was in Vienna), and the guy running the stand immediately bolted out with his half-meter-long meat-shaving knife and starting waving it at me demanding that I delete the photo. Lesson learned, if you ask first then most people are more than happy to oblige/pose.

Assuming she's correct -- i.e. you photographed her without asking -- then it is perfectly reasonable for her to object (and surprising -- to me -- that you were "stunned and speechless"). Under German law she can certainly require you not to publish or display the picture, including to your friends or on a FaceTwit page.

That leaves the alleged "meanest most reprimanding voice"... That would be a case of your word against hers. Not really much of a basis for a complaint, although obviously it would have been better if she'd made a point more gently.

If OP didn't ask and get an affirmative response, OP was 100% wrong and it was entirely appropriate for the FA to make the demand. If OP didn't like the tone of the "ask" that's truly subjective.

Flight attendant demanded that l delete the picture!
 

It is common courtesy to ask.

I can understand this Air Berlin situation from the FA's POV, but this UA one is 1000 times worse. He was taking a picture of the seat. Talk about a FA and pilot on a power trip... Sadly UA probably promoted them.

Ditto. It is common courtesy to ask.

Keep in mind that she's working a job. Flip it around: You wouldn't want random people coming to your workplace and taking pictures of you working at your job without being asked, would you? (that is, regardless of whether your job is client facing or not).

Her job deals with customer, but it still doesn't take away her right to privacy. I'd imagine a number of FA would oblige, but it is first and foremost, a common courtesy to ask. So she wasn't out of line.

Common courtesy would have been to ask first. I could understand you feel embarrassed at being caught out for your lack of manners. I'm not sure why you chose to feel humiliated about it though. You made a mistake, but presumably you apologised to her for your lack of courtesy, I think if she is prepared to let it go then you should just move on, lesson learned.

Sounds like it's a little more than an etiquette issue in Germany. I wasn't aware they had laws such as this:

Does sound like an impossible law to enforce, particularly when the flyer posts the photo when back in the U.S.

Thanks for your thoughts, comments and points of view. Seems the safest thing to do is ask rather than assume. Fine, l'm a big girl, l'll take my "slap on the wrist" and move on.

I guess it's a fact that flight attendants now have more power to throw a passenger off a flight so it could have been worst. I do not use facebook etc.....only Flyertalk and Trip Advisor, but l get the picture (pun intended)

Absolutely. And the "right to one's own image" is not a concept that every country protects. In Germany that protection is rooted in constitutional protection of an individual's private sphere, not in criminal law. The relevance here is not that there could have been legal consequences for the OP, but that an FA working for a German airline (on a European route) starts out with a different set of assumptions about acceptable behaviour than a visitor from a different continent.

If push came to shove, I'd expect a German airline to side with their employee on the photography question.

If push came to shove, I'd expect a German airline to side with their employee on pretty much anything...

;)

Just to add: Under German law even crowd pictures are technically protected under the same law which means if you take a picture of a crowd of people you theoretically would need each and every one of these people to give you a permission to use their picture in writting. For that reason German concert tickets for example have a note on them that you agree to have your picture taken with purchase of the ticket and if the concert is really recorded for commercial use there will also be signs at the event reminding you to leave the premises if you disagree with having your picture taken. So the flight attendant was definitely in the right here.

But much more importantly than this German law thing is that taking a picture of somebody without their permission can get you in really big trouble. In some parts of this world taking a persons picture equalls "taking their soul" due to religious believes. Therefore you should definitely always ask for permission before you take a picture of a stranger.

Germans are picky about all these things, right to image, right to be forgotten, environmental protection - or the illusion of it - (don't you dare switch on the air con too much...), privacy issues (how many laptops have I seen with a sticker on the webcam)...

I understand their position, and I too, would not want to be photographed without permission, but really they could use some rudimentary tact!

While the legal position is theoretically interesting, the fact is that basic manners ( and common sense) could have avoided this situation.... "Excuse me, is it alright if I take your photo? " is all it would have needed.

Unless the response is a clear and unequivocal "Yes" then it is clear that no consent has been given.

If it were years ago she wouldn't have batted an eyelid. Nowadays with seemingly everyone carrying an electronic toy I'm not surprised by her reaction.....at least she said please.
The general public need to learn that just because cabin crew are in a customer facing role it doesn't give them the right to take pictures of them without their permission.

As for them having more power. I suspect they are just more aware of their rights when dealing with problem customers.

It sounds like the OP learned a valuable lesson. Photography is perceived differently by many, and different countries' laws may vary - a lot.

Photographing on American Airlines is OK, photographing AA personnel is technically not; try photographing railroad personnel in the UK - I've seen some sharp rebukes and upset (security claims); in some nations, photographing police or military, even in plain cloths, is guaranteed to get one in trouble.

In Kenya, for instance, it is also against the law to photograph any military or police structure or vehicle, the President, bridges, the flag, etc. and photographing a Maasai without permission could earn a broken camera, a Stine, etc.

In some countries it is against laws to photograph children. In Turkey iirc, a group of airplane spotters on an organised aviation photography trip were detained for several days - for photographing aircraft.

OP's intentions were harmless and complimentary and no way an invasion of privacy. The FA was on the job in public handing out candy, for heaven's sake. It is a highly public customer service job, being an FA, and a poor showing to humiliate some random passenger who is excited about the trip just for taking your picture. Completely tactless.

Picture laws
 

Most people don't know or don't care, but taking a picture of a person that will be clearly identifiable on that picture without the person's written permission are breaking the law. It's this way for German law, but also for most other countries in the world (there are a few exceptions that do not matter here, e.g. very famous public persons like presidents).

Again, most people just don't know it's this way (like I assume in your case), and more and more people simply don't care. But they are still violating that person's personality rights. I had some lawyers working this out to the last detail for me, because I often appear speaking in front of hundreds of people, and if I want to use a picture showing not only me but also the audience, it's a legal nightmare (best way: have a signed model release by everyone in the audience or simply take photo/video that has the audience slightly out of focus so it's not possible to see their faces). Back to your exact case:

And while her reaction seemed rude to you, I think it was appropriate. Do you like strangers to take pictures of you without asking?
Technically when you enter a German airplane that is about to leave for Germany, I think German law applies (I am not sure about that).
The German law is very strict here (that is a 100% sure fact): If you post a picture of someone without his/her permission, they can sue you for up to 50.000 EUR depending on some factors. And she could also have slapped you and destroyed your phone as an act of self defense - I can't find the link right now, but one person did exactly that: He was accused of a crime, had to appear in a German court and a reporter took a photo of him there. He slapped that reporter once, destroying his camera and hitting him in the face with the same blow. A German court later decided that this was appropriate self defense, because the reporter was violating that person's personal rights and taking a photo without permission, so he took appropriate measures to defend his right of NOT being photographed (this was just about TAKING the photo, never about publishing it).

German legal blogs widely discussed google glasses a few months ago and the problems they pose because you can take pictures without the photographed person noticing it. That was where this case was quoted several times.

But if you ask nicely BEFORE taking the picture, my guess is 70% of Germans will agree to have it taken ;-)
Cheers,
zap!

I stand by my saying, the Germans never let logic and common sense get in the way of a good rule.

Was on AA flight MIA-LGA two weeks. Some teenager using iPad to record 360 degrees from his seat. FA saw him and asked him to stop citing security concerns.

As for the original question on this thread, regardless of whether it is legal or not, I think it is just common courtesy to ask first if you are taking a picture or video of a person; now even more so in the age of social media.

Everyone is focusing on whether it is legal, or that permission ought to be asked, and I get where you are coming from. But don't you think FA's ought have better people skills than to humiliate a passenger, in this case over taking a picture while she is greeting passengers and handing out candy? It would have been possible to say no photos while being nice about it.

I've thought long and hard on this one and here are my thoughts:

I have very little experience with German custom, so I'm going to ignore the specific cultural context of this incident for the moment and just say how I would interpret this situation from my own background as someone born and raised in North America but who has lived in the UK and Asia for the past 10 years.

First, I believe it is common courtesy to ask someone first before you take their picture. In this regard, the OP could be interpreted as out of line.

However, we also need to consider that this was in the context of an airplane boarding procedure, where efficiency matters, and holding up the whole boarding, even for 15 seconds to ask to take a picture of a flight attendant, could also be considered inconsiderate to the other passengers.

Then there is the issue of the Flight Attendant's response. Regardless of whether it was inconsiderate of the OP to take a picture without asking, it was also lacking in common courtesy for the FA to respond with such brusqueness (assuming we take the OP at her word as to how the FA responded). Just because you feel you have been wronged does not mean you have the right to be rude. This is exactly the sort of circumstance where some magic words and a "I'm sorry, but I would really prefer my picture not being taken, could you please delete that photograph" would have been the ideal course of action by the FA.

So, my interpretation is that there were 2 wrongs here. The OP should have asked to take the picture and the FA should have exercised some common courtesy in the response. Barking orders at someone is not the best way to resolve a dispute, especially in a customer service environment. This reminds me of a very mild-mannered friend of mine who also happens to be a Captain and Army Ranger (US). I asked him once about how he leads his unit as he's such a 'nice guy' and I couldn't imagine him ever yelling like the stereotypical drill sergeant. He replied "Actually, I don't yell much, if at all. I believe that true leadership shouldn't need to come from shouting."

There is a broader issue too here, as to whether uniformed personnel in customer-facing environments should just have an expectation that they will be photographed. This is the 21st century after all and everyone has a camera in their pocket. I suspect that the fancily dressed doormen at hotels like the Peninsula and Raffles have their photos taken all the time without being asked and without making a fuss about it. Why is that situation any different from this one? I also imagine SQ flight attendants, in their famous Sarong Kabayas are also photographed frequently without being asked.

Ok, so finally, coming back to the cultural context issue. It does seem from other posters that Germans have a particular sensitivity to privacy issues and that might have come out in this case. As international travellers we all have a responsibility to be culturally sensitive and this incident highlights more than anything, why we should probably ask before taking pictures of people in foreign countries. However, I will also point out that this should go both ways. Flight attendants for international airlines should also exhibit understanding when dealing with people from other countries where privacy issues are not so sensitive. If you have chosen to work in an international context, than you cannot assume that everyone you deal with will have the same cultural norms as you and by extension, you cannot blow your fuse every time someone breaks those conventions. Again, the solution here is for everyone to keep their cool and always exhibit basic common courtesy: a please and thank you goes a lot further to keeping the peace than yelling at people.

Sorry, I can't let that particular over-generalisation go without comment....

For the avoidance of doubt, my position is that whenever someone will be recognisable in a published image, it is polite to ask their permission, and abide by their wishes, regardless of the legal position in the country you happen to be in, and that is the way I do things personally.

However, it isn't correct to say that it is illegal to take an identifiable photograph in the majority of the world (my specialist knowledge covers the UK and US, but I've had to research other areas from time to time). In fact, it isn't even technically correct for Germany, though I agree that the result may be the same (it isn't illegal to take a photograph that includes someone's face in Germany, but it may well be illegal to publish it, unless it comes under one of the allowed exemptions)

For the UK, pretty much anything that is on, or (subject to some common sense exceptions) visible from public land is fair game - there is no "expectation of privacy" in a public place, and, contrary to popular belief, any argument that hinges on copyright is doomed to failure (copyright in an image rests with the photographer, not the subject). Even on private property, you are entitled to assume that you can photograph what you want unless previously advised otherwise - you only start to risk "committing an offence" if you fail to stop when asked (and, the above German precedents notwithstanding, if you attempt to grab someone's camera or force them to delete photos, you are very likely to be guilty of an assault).

Most of the above also applies to the USA, with the helpful addition that most US airports are municipal property, and are thus classified as "public property" (but watch for local bye-laws).

Some EU countries are a lot more strict (beware Spain, and those countries with a similar legal system), and I certainly would not advise taking a portrait of any random German on the street in their home country and then posting it on Facebook, not unless you have access to very cost-effective legal representation....

In this particular case, if the subject was (or contained) the FA, then their permission should have been asked before taking the picture, however, the FA overreacted, and two wrongs don't make a right! (No-one has the right to force you to delete a photograph, not even most law enforcement, though obviously a polite request should always be considered on merits).

As someone who enjoys documenting their travels with photos, all of this "you can't take photographs here" hysteria does tend to push my buttons, though I don't think anyone who wanders around pushing their camera into peoples faces and generally acting like a paparazzi does the rest of us any favours, but I'd rue the day that I'm told I can't take a picture of the Eiffel tower because there may be someone else standing in front of it......

Ken.

Willard the Bear - ...and anyway, who could refuse the opportunity to be photographed with me!

I am not a legal expert, but I always had the understanding as per Ken's description above that individuals in public spaces could not assume a right to privacy with regard photographs. This brings to mind a major scandal a few years back in Canada when individuals took pictures of Toronto Transit workers sleeping on the job. There was much criticism of the Transit Authority and their workers but no one questioned whether it was legal for subway passengers to snap the pics of the sleeping workers - so one would presume, that in Canada at least, its fair game to take pictures of workers at their jobs in public places.

http://www.citynews.ca/2010/01/22/tt...ng-on-the-job/

Beliebe it or not: There is a world outside your home jurisdiction and privacy is an important civil right in our country.

As someone who has lived outside his home country and continent for most of his life, I am well aware of this and don't require a snarky reminder from you.

If you read my previous comment, you would have noted that I made great pains to explain that individuals travelling abroad need to be aware of local culture and norms. I also explained that people working in international professions, such as airlines, also need to be sensitive of differing cultural norms from among their clientele.

In fact, you should have reserved your comment for the original German poster, who made the assumption that German law and custom regarding privacy extended to 'most other countries in the world'. It was that comment, which largeeyes and myself were pointing out was incorrect. I was not saying that Canadian customs and laws applied to Germany, but rather emphasizing Zap7's point that the strict German privacy laws were not the norm throughout the world.

sorry, an airport or an aircraft are not "public" places under the UK legal definition.

If this had happened in the UK, the OP could not have published the photo in any form. The FA could also ask for it to be deleted.

That's where intent comes in. It was a passenger taking a picture of a flight attendant passing out candy, which was a public relations gesture. Just not reasonable for the FA to be rude and huffy about a passenger responding just exactly as Lufthansa intended, being charmed by the candy gesture, and innocently snapping a picture of it. I think the incident should be reported to Lufthansa.

It could be worse. A relatively infrequent flyer (that's how best to put it), from rural Morocco I guess took a picture of the Air France flight attendant on my Air France Marrakech-Paris flight. There followed a heated argument - the guy clearly did not understand what she meant about privacy and so on - he just wanted to record every bit of his first flight.
As I left the aircraft two burly policiers were waiting on the air bridge for the unfortunate.

I don't see "rude", "huffy" or "Lufthansa" anywhere in the OP's report. :confused:

Looking back it was Air Berlin and the wording was "meanest, most reprimanding voice."

What if that person was in a Witness Protection Program (like me)?

CT

Sure. And a frequent flyer from wherever took a photo of this guy's wife in rural Morocco without asking and guess what happened ? It was not the police but the entire village crowd hunting for him....

Rule number 1: You need to ask.