Future interior refurbishment programs?
 

Yes, I know the A330s have only just been reconfigured, but does anyone have a clue when AC will refresh interiors again? There are some product inconsistencies (for example, the 333 PY seats are much better than those on the 787/777s), the A320s are in desperate need of a refresh, and even the widebodies will need a more cutting edge J product pretty soon in order to remain competitive.

Since this question isn't really about refurbishments on the 330 fleet (where it was originally posted) I'm moving it to a new thread.

Adam Smith
AC Forum Co-Moderator

The inconsistencies in the widebody fleet are pretty minor - or will be, if they ever finish the 333 refurbishments.

AC depreciates cabin interiors over eight years, which suggests that's about their useful life. Then again, when other things delayed their plans, they ended up extending the lifespan of the XM interiors long beyond that.

The fact they're in the process of refurbishing the 333s to a similar look and feel to the 787/777 fleet suggests there aren't going to be any major changes soon.

The mainline 319s have all left the fleet, and the 320s have been following them out the door. So don't expect them to do anything with the 320s that are left.

If the 321s are part of the long-term fleet plan (and the cancellation of the 7M9 order suggests that's reasonably likely), they'll definitely need a refresh soon, which will probably mean something that looks a lot like the 7M8s and 223s.

Competitive with what? Polaris is just finally catching UA up to AC in terms of hard product. AC's current offering seems pretty in line with what WS and AA have. LH is still installing frigging 2-2-2 J layouts in brand new 359s, for crying out loud. BA is finally rolling out a modern J product that's not exactly a leap forward from what AC has.

EK and EY F are not the standard by which AC measures its J hard product.

The current trend with airlines is to rip out business class and replace with premium economy. Will be interesting to see what AC does here.

"Seats in the premium cabin occupy barely 10% more space than coach, whereas a business-class berth typically requires three times as much room. Deutsche Lufthansa AG says premium economy generates 33% more revenue per square foot than economy and 6% more than business—and is 40% more profitable than the latter because it’s cheaper to install. "
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...usiness-travel

Ron.

IMHO QR J Qsuites would be better than AC's J product.

AC already has fairly small J/F cabins compared to those carriers though.

Take a look at LH's 333s, for instance, since there's an easy direct comparison. They have 3 layouts - 8F 30J, 8F 42J, and 42J. On all of those aircraft, the J/F seating extends well past doors 2. AC has 32 J seats on the 333, all forward of doors 2.

AC also started bringing in PY earlier than a number of the carriers named in that article.

So you could argue, to some extent, that AC was ahead of the curve on this.

I'm not saying AC's hard product is the best. But you don't need the best product to secure a profitable share of the market, and AC has been heavily focused on profitability for a long time. The fairly recent 333 refurbishment suggests AC is comfortable with where it's at when it comes to hard product.

Wasn't getting into who's the best, profitability, market-share, etc. Was simply giving PoV that QR's J Qsuites which launched about 4.5yrs ago would be better than AC's J hard product based on your earlier comments/comparison on AC J hard product to UA, WS, AA, LH and BA. Some may eveb say QR's new Business Class Suite introduced on their 787s (I would rate lower than Qsuites) may even be better than AC's J hard product.

I think the higher priority should be having a survivable sub-cabin product on Rogue. The WB J seats are "good enough".

I wish Air Canada will come up with a premium economy seat or domestic J seat with movable armrests. Sometimes I find myself finding a row of empty seats at the back a night flight to lie down across instead of sitting upright in domestic J or premium Y

XM went essentially from 2007 to 2014... with DreamCabins starting 2014-ish... I found that XM cabins got beat up and tired a lot faster than the DreamCabin cabins... although AC got more new aircraft since 2014 so that may have something to do with it?
But even being on the low 800 FINs (basically the small lot of 788s), they don't seem as beat up/tired after 6/7 years like XM did... IMHO.

Have to agree with Adam Smith on this one.
AC doesn't need to go chasing tail with the Joneses, that's how you end up being EY.
And I would also be curious what will be done to extend the life of the 321s

mileageking, while I agree in principle of liking a door a la. DL One, QR Q-Suites, BA New Club World; don't forget having more bells and trinkets means there are more chances of the bells and trinkets broken.

Don't forget there's a dedicated thread to deflategate ;)
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-...ng-flight.html


This all falls back on the airline on their Quality Control at delivery and material chosen.

Just be blessed the Dreamcabin has turned out to be a good investment. :)
With that said, I wouldn't mind stepping on a XM 333, its been ages :D

CX had the reverse problem :rolleyes:
77Ws are lasting good through 10 yrs, bloody thing is built like a tank
350s, yeesh, things breaking apart within 6 months of service

When cabin refurbishing goes wrong, ALOT of money go down the drain. :idea:

Jazz also has CR9s and E75s with IFE and J seats that need refreshes, assuming they're going to stick around.

They only need to look to their (otherwise inferior) southern counterpart for regional jet hard product ideas.

LH is starting to be a bit of a mess in J. They are adding 787's with a different J seat and they just announced the purchase of former Philippine Airlines A350's with a 3rd J seat type. If the 777X ever come online, LH will have 4 different types of J seats in their fleet.

AC has a very competitive J class hard product. As others have pointed out, minus the door, the seat is essentially the same as BA's new J seat. BA has a long way to go to get these seats on all of their aircraft. It seems unlikely that the J cabins will be refurbished anytime soon, especially in light of the A330's just being refurbished (and a bunch still to go).

The Rouge A321 refurbishment is likely a clue as to how the mainline A321's will be addressed when time, fleet planning, and CapEx allows. They may be around a while before they are redone. What is more interesting is at what point does AC pull the trigger on an LR/XLR order and whether those aircraft are equipped with a proper J seat or not.

I remember the 5 minutes UA had the Q400s with a J class cabin...but overall, their regional jets are very...basic

The UA CRJ-500 refit has 2 cabins and is a step up from "very basic" https://hub.united.com/united-region...641053393.html

I have not had the pleasure, yet

Im more curious as to when/if Air Canada will install IFE screens on their second hand CRJ9s and the last batch they received... I had the (un)pleasure of flying one of the ex-delta on YVR-SAN last year

I had one from IAH. It was....annoying

Anyone know where the Rouge refurbishments took place? Two mainline A321's are at YRQ. Maintenance is done in YRQ but is it possible that the rumoured A321 refurbishments have started on the mainline A321's?

I wonder if the 3 new 787s will get the older variant of DreamCabin (on the Boeings), the newer variant (A330 product), or something completely new. Probably not the latter, but one can only imagine…

same cabin as all the other 787s. One is flying already.

Aren't the 32x supposed to be completely retired?

Surprised that the E75 and CR9 (which went through a mini update) a while back are all using legacy IFE.

The 321s were never slated for retirement. They'll be around especially with the purchase of the NX (expect more orders imo).
They operate 2 versions of the 320; the -211 and -214. The -214s aren't getting retired anytime soon since they're 100% part commonality with the 321 (engines being the main thing). The -211s are a surprise to see come back from storage (for Jetz mainly).

As for the CRJ, they haven't been updated other than the addition of seats in the original -705s. Tails 717-721 have their original interiors and 722-730 are pretty much new. No plans as of yet for a new interior.
Same can be said for the Embraers. Express has the issue of staffing which prevents a long term fleet plan as of now,

The E75 interiors are shot and need to go. Flew YYZ-BOS a few times this year in J and seats are dirty (pretty gross to the point where I change into a hoodie for the flight so back of my head doesn't make physical contact with the headrest) with saggy cushions and seem to slowly recline of their own volition.

How stupid to use an inferior PY product when they have been installing the new seat on the 7M8/A220/A330 for, what, 5 years now?

Is that confirmed from AC or personal experience? I had heard the J seats would use foam instead of inflatable seats on these 3, but otherwise no significant changes.

Changing the seats to a totally different model may require new certification of the cabin, and for 3 planes it may be easier to maintain commonality.

Common problem. It seems like the brake on the recline just wears out over time, and it's not specific to AC. I've had this problem on numerous DL flights (same seats) and a few on AA or UA too. Once got 5K SkyMiles out of it when I wrote in to DL about what a shame it was they weren't doing anything about the issue (I think I had the problem on 4 segments in a month, all on different aircraft).
Sadly, I can't think of any newer and better E75 J cabins I've seen on other carriers that might serve as wla model. But I'm sure there's something out there

I for one, would like to see movable armrests in PY (premium economy) as part of the next refresh.

It's annoying to sit in PY with non-moveable armrests, especially when there is an empty seat next to you. Can't lie across, can't get even more comfortable. Sometimes I'd rather be in Y with empty seats rather than in PY.

I have mixed opinions on this. On one hand I agree with exactly what you said. On the other hand, making the armrest movable means that one could potentially spill over to the seat nearby.