Low Segment, Low mileage, High spend = Super Elite Please??
Nov 26, 2016, 10:05 am
#31
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MLL / AC Cafe
Programs: It's hard to get status when the website won't let me book flights.
Posts: 5,706
Oh Sean, I can always depend on you to write the response that I'm too jetlagged to put into sane words.
It's a frequent FLYER program. If you want to earn status, you need to fly more often, or further.
People who drop mid to high five figures without worrying about status don't need to be rewarded, because they won't change their behavior for it.
It's a frequent FLYER program. If you want to earn status, you need to fly more often, or further.
People who drop mid to high five figures without worrying about status don't need to be rewarded, because they won't change their behavior for it.
Nov 26, 2016, 10:07 am
#32
Join Date: May 2013
Location: YYT/YYC/TPE
Programs: AC SE, UA, National Exec Elite, Nexus, GE
Posts: 1,810
...by the way, flying YYZ-HKG in J, five times, will net 117,090 AQM and $20-22K in AQD; not so much "easily qualifying" as "barely scraping by the minimum".
From the Easy SE, Air Canada took in roughly $2,000 per segment.
You're flying 50 segments a year, and spending $50K, so you're worth about $1,000 per segment.
...but the Easy SE:
- only went to the MLL five times
- only flew out of YYZ in the winter once, so never hit IRROPS
- books all her tickets well in advance to get lowest-J, so never needs a Concierge to make a last-minute change.
- Flies all her segments, never does a last-minute cancel-and-rebook that sends a seat out empty for a $200 change fee.
- Never flies Flex, with 50K, so AC never has to give out a $120 per-transcon Preferred Seat for free.
Maybe you don't do any of these things either, but any of them is a hit against your $1000-per-segment value to AC.
Heck, the value of your Preferred Seats alone could cost AC anywhere from $2-5K in lost ancillary revenue.
Point being, you are profitable on volume, but on a per-transaction value you are less valuable to the airline than the Easy SE described above.
...and on YYZ-YYC, you have exactly one other option, and it suuuuucks, and they know it.
From the Easy SE, Air Canada took in roughly $2,000 per segment.
You're flying 50 segments a year, and spending $50K, so you're worth about $1,000 per segment.
...but the Easy SE:
- only went to the MLL five times
- only flew out of YYZ in the winter once, so never hit IRROPS
- books all her tickets well in advance to get lowest-J, so never needs a Concierge to make a last-minute change.
- Flies all her segments, never does a last-minute cancel-and-rebook that sends a seat out empty for a $200 change fee.
- Never flies Flex, with 50K, so AC never has to give out a $120 per-transcon Preferred Seat for free.
Maybe you don't do any of these things either, but any of them is a hit against your $1000-per-segment value to AC.
Heck, the value of your Preferred Seats alone could cost AC anywhere from $2-5K in lost ancillary revenue.
Point being, you are profitable on volume, but on a per-transaction value you are less valuable to the airline than the Easy SE described above.
...and on YYZ-YYC, you have exactly one other option, and it suuuuucks, and they know it.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Nov 26, 2016, 10:14 am
#33
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Location: YYZ
Posts: 585
...by the way, flying YYZ-HKG in J, five times, will net 117,090 AQM and $20-22K in AQD; not so much "easily qualifying" as "barely scraping by the minimum".
From the Easy SE, Air Canada took in roughly $2,000 per segment.
You're flying 50 segments a year, and spending $50K, so you're worth about $1,000 per segment.
...but the Easy SE:
- only went to the MLL five times
- only flew out of YYZ in the winter once, so never hit IRROPS
- books all her tickets well in advance to get lowest-J, so never needs a Concierge to make a last-minute change.
- Flies all her segments, never does a last-minute cancel-and-rebook that sends a seat out empty for a $200 change fee.
- Never flies Flex, with 50K, so AC never has to give out a $120 per-transcon Preferred Seat for free.
Maybe you don't do any of these things either, but any of them is a hit against your $1000-per-segment value to AC.
Heck, the value of your Preferred Seats alone could cost AC anywhere from $2-5K in lost ancillary revenue.
Point being, you are profitable on volume, but on a per-transaction value you are less valuable to the airline than the Easy SE described above.
...and on YYZ-YYC, you have exactly one other option, and it suuuuucks, and they know it.
From the Easy SE, Air Canada took in roughly $2,000 per segment.
You're flying 50 segments a year, and spending $50K, so you're worth about $1,000 per segment.
...but the Easy SE:
- only went to the MLL five times
- only flew out of YYZ in the winter once, so never hit IRROPS
- books all her tickets well in advance to get lowest-J, so never needs a Concierge to make a last-minute change.
- Flies all her segments, never does a last-minute cancel-and-rebook that sends a seat out empty for a $200 change fee.
- Never flies Flex, with 50K, so AC never has to give out a $120 per-transcon Preferred Seat for free.
Maybe you don't do any of these things either, but any of them is a hit against your $1000-per-segment value to AC.
Heck, the value of your Preferred Seats alone could cost AC anywhere from $2-5K in lost ancillary revenue.
Point being, you are profitable on volume, but on a per-transaction value you are less valuable to the airline than the Easy SE described above.
...and on YYZ-YYC, you have exactly one other option, and it suuuuucks, and they know it.
A segment could be 400 miles or 10000 miles. They're not the same
I would argue that I am actually MORE profitable to air canada than your average J flyer
Let's figure out how much I PAID air canada to fly me 1 mile
I;m currently at around 57000 AQD and having flown 52000 miles. Thats $1.09 I paid air canada to fly me 1 mile
Your J flyer did 117000 miles but only paid 22000 for the privilege. He paid AC only 19 cents to fly him 1 mile
I am over 5 times more profitable to AC than your J flyer....
I agree with your other points though. Sure I cost AC a little more due to lounge use and seats. Burt 5 times more? nah no way. And even if I did, I'd still be breaking even.
Last edited by MaydayMayday; Nov 26, 2016 at 10:20 am
Nov 26, 2016, 10:32 am
#34
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: YOW
Programs: AC SEMM; AA,DL, Hyatt and Starwood. Ex-status:SQ PPS,CSA,Hilton,AA,UA
Posts: 743
Two six month unlimited "Transcontinental" flight passes comes in at 50-60k per year and would give you 120,000 status miles and SE status.
Books into "high" flex. If you choose the eUpgrade flight pass credit option you'll get another 120 (12 per month) plus 40 threshold plus up to 70 as SE to start with for 230 eUpgrade credits. This lets you upgrade 57 1500+ mile segment flights.
Books into "high" flex. If you choose the eUpgrade flight pass credit option you'll get another 120 (12 per month) plus 40 threshold plus up to 70 as SE to start with for 230 eUpgrade credits. This lets you upgrade 57 1500+ mile segment flights.
In addition, if one's travel is for different clients, or for different cost centres, it can be tricky to figure out how to fairly allocate the costs -- and to persuade various admin droids to accept it. In addition, if the travel plans collectively don't work out as anticipated, who bears the cost of the wastage? I guess in a way it's just a form of additional price discrimination - if you know your specific travel needs ahead of time, you can use inflexible economy or P fares; if you know your general travel patterns ahead of time, you can use passes; if not, pay maximum $.
I do think a fair(er) pragmatic way to set FF tiers would be to define qualifying and separate minimum thresholds on each of AQM, AQS, and AQD. You need to qualify on any one of the three but also meet the minimum on the other two. So e.g. you make SE with [AQM > 100k as long as (AQS > 20 and AQD > $20k)] or with [AQS > 95 as long as (AQM > 50k and AQD > $20)] or [AQD > $40k as long as (AQM > 50k and AQS > 20)]. (Those are just example numbers.)
Nov 26, 2016, 11:40 am
#35
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: YYJ
Programs: AC SE*MM, Bonvoy LT Plat, HH Gold, National EE, Sixt Plat, Hz 5*
Posts: 2,439
Dude you can't do a profitability analysis based on profit / segment
A segment could be 400 miles or 10000 miles. They're not the same
I would argue that I am actually MORE profitable to air canada than your average J flyer
Let's figure out how much I PAID air canada to fly me 1 mile
I;m currently at around 57000 AQD and having flown 52000 miles. Thats $1.09 I paid air canada to fly me 1 mile
Your J flyer did 117000 miles but only paid 22000 for the privilege. He paid AC only 19 cents to fly him 1 mile
I am over 5 times more profitable to AC than your J flyer....
I agree with your other points though. Sure I cost AC a little more due to lounge use and seats. Burt 5 times more? nah no way. And even if I did, I'd still be breaking even.
A segment could be 400 miles or 10000 miles. They're not the same
I would argue that I am actually MORE profitable to air canada than your average J flyer
Let's figure out how much I PAID air canada to fly me 1 mile
I;m currently at around 57000 AQD and having flown 52000 miles. Thats $1.09 I paid air canada to fly me 1 mile
Your J flyer did 117000 miles but only paid 22000 for the privilege. He paid AC only 19 cents to fly him 1 mile
I am over 5 times more profitable to AC than your J flyer....
I agree with your other points though. Sure I cost AC a little more due to lounge use and seats. Burt 5 times more? nah no way. And even if I did, I'd still be breaking even.
Flight passes are a huge benefit for me because I generally get the ticket for less than half what AC considers the market value at the time that I book. I usually book same day. Plus with SE concierge access I can book tickets with the intention of using SDC's immediately to get what I really wanted.
Nov 26, 2016, 12:25 pm
#36
Original Poster
Join Date: May 2013
Location: YYZ
Posts: 585
The only thing I'm wondering is why you don't use flight passes to control those high costs. I also fly last minute all the time, just this last Thursday I booked a 0915 departure at 0100 as I was getting home from the bar, and booked my return segment when I had already arrived at my destination for travel that evening (only 4 hours on the ground).
Flight passes are a huge benefit for me because I generally get the ticket for less than half what AC considers the market value at the time that I book. I usually book same day. Plus with SE concierge access I can book tickets with the intention of using SDC's immediately to get what I really wanted.
Flight passes are a huge benefit for me because I generally get the ticket for less than half what AC considers the market value at the time that I book. I usually book same day. Plus with SE concierge access I can book tickets with the intention of using SDC's immediately to get what I really wanted.
Nov 26, 2016, 12:30 pm
#37
Join Date: May 2005
Location: YOW
Programs: AC-SE100K MM, BA-S HH-D, MB-G LT Sil, IHG-Plt, Nexus, Global Entry
Posts: 3,803
Nov 26, 2016, 12:39 pm
#38
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: YOW
Programs: AC SEMM; AA,DL, Hyatt and Starwood. Ex-status:SQ PPS,CSA,Hilton,AA,UA
Posts: 743
FPs are a trojan horse if your assumed patterns go fubar, or if your various stakeholders can't be made to agree who will pay what, and meanwhile you're personally floating the $$$.
Many of my various travel funders (sometimes separate companies, sometimes just different budget lines on one P&L) can't yet figure out how to administratively process a cancellation fee for a simple nonrefundable ticket not flown, and so prefer I book refundable fares rather than nonrefundable ones. I don't dare even try explaining to them I bought a Transcontinental pass for $16k for 10 J credits to split for future trips among two of them. And then a year from now figure out what to do with the fact I actually only used 5 of those credits for one, 3 the other, was able to use one of the rest for a wasteful short hop, and one expired. Even though any reasonable way of splitting the FP cost might well be more cost-effective for everyone than paying standalone J/C tickets. (I used transcon J as an example, ditto regardless of type of FP and cabin.)
Nov 26, 2016, 12:40 pm
#39
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: YVR
Programs: AC S100K
Posts: 978
Change your outlook OP.
Granting Super Elite Status to anyone isn't AC's way of rewarding their most valuable customers. It's how they placate those high volume low margin bottom feeders needed to fill the seats.
They cunningly provide vanity tags which the lemmings all wear. It's thereby easy to identify those plebs, present in J on a space available basis.
SEs are needed only so AC can serve those willing to pay for the services they deserve. That's you--the boss. Be proud.
Granting Super Elite Status to anyone isn't AC's way of rewarding their most valuable customers. It's how they placate those high volume low margin bottom feeders needed to fill the seats.
They cunningly provide vanity tags which the lemmings all wear. It's thereby easy to identify those plebs, present in J on a space available basis.
SEs are needed only so AC can serve those willing to pay for the services they deserve. That's you--the boss. Be proud.
Nov 26, 2016, 12:48 pm
#40
Join Date: May 2004
Location: yyz
Programs: AC*SE 1MM. a bunch of hotel programs.
Posts: 1,592
I do about 45-50 AC flights a year, most of them within North America
Would never hit super elite at this rate. However, a lot of my flights are last minute bookings. So my overall spend with AC is around 50-60k per year. Hell I've spent 6K this week alone booking last minute YYZ-YYC R\Ts
So my question is why isn't there a pathway to super elite for flyers like myself who spend quite a lot on AC but aren't necessarily road warriors and do 100 flights a year or travel transocean?
Why does AC care more about someone who does 4-5 YYZ-HKG trips a year over someone like me? Why is that person easily eligible for SE but I don't even make it halfway there.
Would never hit super elite at this rate. However, a lot of my flights are last minute bookings. So my overall spend with AC is around 50-60k per year. Hell I've spent 6K this week alone booking last minute YYZ-YYC R\Ts
So my question is why isn't there a pathway to super elite for flyers like myself who spend quite a lot on AC but aren't necessarily road warriors and do 100 flights a year or travel transocean?
Why does AC care more about someone who does 4-5 YYZ-HKG trips a year over someone like me? Why is that person easily eligible for SE but I don't even make it halfway there.
Nov 26, 2016, 12:50 pm
#41
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: YEG
Programs: AC Lifetime SE100K, 3MM, SPG Lifetime Plat, Hertz PC, National Executive Elite
Posts: 2,901
Nov 26, 2016, 4:59 pm
#42
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE*2MM. SPG Plat life
Posts: 4,644
That's the thing I don't have any particular routes. I need to fly out when needed and I often don't have a lot of notice. A day or 2 at max and that's pushing it. So I generally have to get higher priced flex fares or Latitude if flex is sold out.
Sometimes I get latitude even if flex is available to give myself flexibility. So that's how my spend gets inflated with a moderate number of segments.
Sometimes I get latitude even if flex is available to give myself flexibility. So that's how my spend gets inflated with a moderate number of segments.
It's impossible to spend 60K on 50 segments($1200 per segment) and not make SE on flex/Lat fares. Your segments costs don't add up.
Nov 26, 2016, 5:06 pm
#43
Suspended
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: YVR
Programs: AC SE*2MM. SPG Plat life
Posts: 4,644
Nov 26, 2016, 5:13 pm
#44
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: MLL / AC Cafe
Programs: It's hard to get status when the website won't let me book flights.
Posts: 5,706
Nov 26, 2016, 5:20 pm
#45
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: SFO
Programs: AC SE MM, BA Gold, SQ Silver, Bonvoy Tit LTG, Hyatt Glob, HH Diamond
Posts: 44,331
Good post mate. I am not suggesting the current requires need to be overhauled, I'd just like to have an option to qualify for SE that prioritises spend.
Currently there are 2 ways, one prioritises segments, the other prioritises miles. No option that prioritises spend. I think that should exist.
Your last point is spot on.
Currently there are 2 ways, one prioritises segments, the other prioritises miles. No option that prioritises spend. I think that should exist.
Your last point is spot on.
You are not flying frequently enough to earn SE status.
If you want to BUY the status, there are flight passes that grant it immediately.
Otherwise, you need to fly more (AQS) or further (AQM), so that you're actually a frequent flyer.