What the definition of "is" is
 

A couple of days early, I arrived in Vancouver from Boston this morning. And given recent pronoucements from both AC and CP, I decided to check out the Air Clinton Arrivals lounge at YVR. Not surprisingly, I did not get in. But I did have fun trying. I even had the web page printouts from both CP and AC, which quite explicity stated that effective yesterday, S/E, E, E/P, and G members could use any AC or CP lounge when traveling on either AC or CP. Didn't matter of course.

It was an interesting transaction, filled with a lot of weasel words, and rather improbable explanation. It would have been much easier for her if she'd just said it's a mistake. Instead I got an explanation about how nobody knows about it, so it's not really a lounge. (That I knew about it seemed lost on her.) Or it's a special kind of lounge. Or it's only one of three lounges in London (LHR?), YYZ, and YVR. Nevertheless, it was still an AC lounge, I was flying CP, and I am an E/P. When finally asked 'Is this, or is it not, and AC lounge?' I got the answer that summed it all up: "It is and it isn't."

Anyone know if the "mistake" in the Aeroplan program guide has been corrected? Fisch? (I guess I actually meant to ask "Dorian?")


[This message has been edited by KenHamer (edited 02-28-2000).]

You had printed evidence and they still didn't let you in??!!! That is insane! I almost don't believe it!

Dorian

Well, it is and it isn't. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

Not wanting to start a war, but few airlines treat their ultra-exclusive Arrivals Lounges the same way as their general club lounges, and so "is" is "not always". Given Dorian's past experiences, you were being very gutsy KH, and I am sure you never expected being let in. While you are technically correct, such lounges are intended for overseas overnight travellers in J-class (and Y-class SEs and ExecPlats?). You'd have gotten the same reception in the past at BA's Arrivals Lounge at T4, even though oneworld emerald and sapphires technically have lounge privileges, these remain off-limits.

It's like I noted in a recent email to EMPRESS, the airlines still operate a class/ caste system, and discrimination in the air (and on the ground) is still a fact of life based on who can pay. Upgradeselite members don't necessarily get all the perks. I suspect the same operates with AA's new international F-Class lounges.

I'm not saying this is "right", but this is how it is.

I have had mixed experiences with arrivals lounges.

When arriving at LHR on the cleanup flight from YYZ, there is no mention of the lounge (Who know's, maybe it's closed by 1200)

When arriving at YVR from HKG at 1600, ditto, no mention of the lounge.

There seems to be some disingenuousness on AC's part. The member guide tells SE's (and E's) that they have access to the Arrivals lounges regardless of class of travel. However, like the planning department in "Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy", AC aren't exactly going out of their way to publicize the arrivals lounges--like telling anyone about it. The guide doesn't even reveal the hours of operation. After all, that might lead to rampaging hordes of people who actually want to use it.

There is also some degree of rigidity of access by consulting manifests. If you arrive KIX-YVR, you are fine. But if you arrive LHR - YYC - YVR, then apparently you are no longer an international arrival, and so you are shut out. And of course, the US is not "international" in AC-speak.

I don't have my guide handy--but would they keep me out if I sought to use it disembarking from a CP operated flight from, e.g. NRT? How about if I was on an AC-code share tkt on a CP operated flight? Would that make a difference? If I fly SYD-HNL-YVR am I disenfranchised by setting foot in forbidden, domestic territory?

Quick--someone with RES3 access--please publish the CIC's on this!

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/wink.gif

I believe the interpretation would be that valid, overnight, international passengers in J-class or Elite/SuperElite/Gold/ExecPlat members in Y-class on flights either on AC or now CP would get in. The whole purpose of these lounges is to permit J-class, overnight passengers to shower and clean up and proceed to their meetings in town, or to onward domestic/transborder connections. This is why these lounges operate only in the mornings, and are restricted to true international passengers.

(U.S. flights have always been considered transborder, except for Hawaii, which often have different upgrading rules, etc. I am sure if you produced a ticket with the origination point in SYD, you'd get in. Probably even HNL would get you in.)

I can't recall the details of Dorian's refused access a few months ago, but KH's refused access did come when he disembarked from a flight from Boston, a clearly transborder, not international flight. And definitely not overnight.

Maybe the language is imprecise. And the letter I quoted in another post from Kari Grist, Cdn's director of marketing did, in bold face say:

"Enjoy the lounge of your choice -- Canadian Airlines or Air Canada -- as an Executive Platinum, Gold or Empress Lounge member."

It did not qualify, "but not international arrivals lounges", yet the very name and design of these lounges suggested a more restricted access policy.

I don't have a problem with different rules for Arrivals lounge access--but I would like to see basic information (like hours and access) set out clearly.

I take it all back:
http://www.aircanada.ca/services/business/if103a.html

Guess that showed me.

Just FYI had first experience to try the arrivals lounge at YVR a couple of weeks ago. I was flying discounted economy from HKG and have an Elite card.

They didn't publicize it, (at least not in the back of the plane!) but when I found it - VERY nice - aside from a shower, you can get a shirt/suit pressed, shoes shined and a breakfast/meal.

Interestingly enough, they were logging those who checked in - seems like there was only two of us at that time who used membership (i.e. E or SE) to get in - rest were all flying J class (and not even a whole lot of them)...

Angus

Notice that Dorian's problem is now clearly addressed (same day international boarding pass)

Given my own past AC experiences, as well as that of Dorian, I had no expectation of being granted entrance. I just wanted to test the envelope, and expose the Emperor's new clothes, 'disingenuous' as they are. (Good word! I've been trying to remember it for it for a month.)

Notwithstanding that I arrived from Boston, I had to get up at 5:30am to make the flight, even skipping my shower, and looked pretty haggard after trying to sleep on the 6 hour flight. Had I not been arriving in my home city, the arrivals lounge would have been an ideal way to being my day in Vancouver, after traveling on a plane and through airports for almost 9 hours.

Contrary to the suggestion that "Maybe the language is imprecise," it is in fact completely unambiguous. It states on both AC's and CP's web pages, and in e-mails to various members, that "...Executive Platinum and Gold members will have access to any Air Canada or Canadian Airlines lounge..." It was the agent's language that was imprecise: "It is and it isn't" a lounge.

In the case of oneworld, they are quite specific about which lounges you can use. They even publish a guide, complete with the fine print that explains any exceptions.

In AA's case, one of the main reasons they call their new FC lounges "Flagship" is to explicitly distinguish them from the regular "Admiral's Club" lounges. Even so, as a non-AA oneworld emerald, I have regularly used the AA FC lounges even when travelling on short domestic hops, like ORD-GRB. Ironic that I can get in, but an AA E/P on a first class ticket ORD-LAX can't, but they live by the rules as they are clearly written.

That's the difference here. It would've been different if Dorian had not put the rules to the test. But after his fiasco, they have no excuse for using "weasel words" anymore. They were put on notice back in November that their language was not correct, and was leading to problem.

It seems clear to me they want to imply "any" lounge, suggesting you have access to everything, in the best marketing tradition of puffery. And to suggest that "not many people know about them" is to treat us like the morons they seem to think we are. Reminds me of the heated debates last year about who was or was not eligble for various bonus promotions that were going on. Both CP and AC were guilty in escapade, and appeared to have learned their lesson. Appeared to.

It would be so simple to change "any lounge" to "any departure lounge". But even after I send all my letters, I'm pretty sure they won't.

Thanks for the reference page. Guess it's time to revisit the two sites and catch up on the changes for the new regime and membership year.

Wonder when CP flights will move over to T3 to join AC? I have a CP flight over to London in early April, but don't think it will happen by then. (Plan to check when in London on Wednesday. This time I will be using BA in F, so look forward to using their Arrivals Lounge in T4.) But also have an AC Executive First at the end of this month, so I'll definitely give their Arrivals Lounge a look, if I can find it...

Okay, I read KH's intitial post far too rapidly and missed the part of "arrival" and not departure. Truly sorry for my original post (#2 above).

Yes, several of you no doubt remember my problems with the YVR arrivals lounge. The problem I had was I was flying AC J class (upgraded) FRA-YYC-YVR. AC stops their FRA-YVR service for the winter and codeshares with LH. Since I wanted to fly AC over LH (who wouldn't!) I chose the connection.

At YYC my baggage late connected so I had time to kill at YVR. This is when I could not get in...even though the SE guide clearly (to me atleast) stated that I could enter ("Boarding pass and SE card"). Supposedly this rule has been amended and you can now get in on direct connects from an International flight.

At the end of Jan. I tried to get into the lounge again (same flight series) as a little test...but it was closed...late afternoon I believe.

Dorian

Dorian: I wouldn't count on getting in after a connecting flight, especially a short connection like YYC-YVR. You now must have an "invitation" to enter, as well as a boarding pass in your own name, or you don't have chance in hell of getting in. (I'm paraphrasing, but have no doubt, that was the message from the agent.) Seems unlikely that they'd even have the invitations on a little puddle-jumper turbo-prop.

They might have them on the FRA-YYC plane, but you'd most likely have to remember to ask for them. Even then, you might have an argument, as there's no arrival lounge in Calgary. (However, there is one in Toronto, apparently. But it's not listed on their web pages.)

KH,

The updated website clears my case. It states that SAME DAY international boarding pass and SE card get you in. That is clear to me and will be made clear to anyone at the desk at YVR-AL.

I was told in Nov. that this problem had been fixed (over the phone). This is an excerpt of an email from Lisa Fournel's office by one Paul Papineau:

"You are absolutely correct in that the member's guide lacks detailed arrivals lounge access information and we are sorry that this was at the root of the service breakdown you witnessed on September 5. As well, the electronic chapter on this topic should specifically address access for customers arriving at their final destination on same-day domestic connections from international flights. We have asked our Marketing department to take appropriate action in these respects.

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention."

In fact, I will phone Paul Papineau directly from the AL if there is any problem with access (assuming it is work hours).

Dorian