F Class available with miles
Aug 10, 2017, 3:06 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
Programs: *G, OWS
Posts: 214
F Class available with miles
I've finally accumulated enough miles to book a long distance award ticket in F class.
Which Airlines still offer a "real" first that can be booked with A3 miles and how early do they release award space?
Currently I know the following:
First class bookable with A3 miles:
-AI
-ANA
-CA
-OZ
-TG
F not available for booking with A3 miles:
-LX
Other:
-LH (limited release 2 weeks in advance)
-SQ (limited release, no Suites on A380 routes)
-UA: still available, phase out with switch to new polaris (F not recommended)
No First:
A3, AC, JP, LO, MS, NZ, OS, OU, SA, SK, TK, TP
Which Airlines still offer a "real" first that can be booked with A3 miles and how early do they release award space?
Currently I know the following:
First class bookable with A3 miles:
-AI
-ANA
-CA
-OZ
-TG
F not available for booking with A3 miles:
-LX
Other:
-LH (limited release 2 weeks in advance)
-SQ (limited release, no Suites on A380 routes)
-UA: still available, phase out with switch to new polaris (F not recommended)
No First:
A3, AC, JP, LO, MS, NZ, OS, OU, SA, SK, TK, TP
Last edited by frogster; Aug 14, 2017 at 6:03 am Reason: inserted current information
Aug 10, 2017, 5:23 am
#3
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
Programs: *G, OWS
Posts: 214
Probably Europe to Oceania or South America and return- im flexible though (got enough miles with oneworld to do positioning flights in C)
I know there's a (infrequently updated and out of date) thread in the Star Alliance subsection discussing the Airlines with F routes. What I don't know is which ones release inventory in F (e.g., LX does not) and when (2 weeks in advance,...)
I know there's a (infrequently updated and out of date) thread in the Star Alliance subsection discussing the Airlines with F routes. What I don't know is which ones release inventory in F (e.g., LX does not) and when (2 weeks in advance,...)
Aug 10, 2017, 5:57 am
#4
Community Director
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norwich, UK
Programs: A3*G, BA Gold, BD Gold (in memoriam), IHG Diamond Ambassador
Posts: 8,477
I would personally look at TG for Oceania - they fly into BKK from multiple entry points in Europe, then onward from there, and usually availability is good far out. The only downside is that the planes themselves are sometimes a little tired (although the number refurbished is rapidly becoming the norm), and substitutions are common, so you may not know exactly what you get until very close to departure time.
However, to balance that the F service is impeccable at BKK, with private check-in, security and an escort to the F lounge. The lounge itself and spa are almost a destination in their own right - the restaurant has a certain exclusive air to it, and the Spa treatments for a First passenger are pretty much on-demand and extensive. You want an hour's Thai massage? Just name your time, pretty much - it's not remotely like the BA Elemis Spa experience!
However, to balance that the F service is impeccable at BKK, with private check-in, security and an escort to the F lounge. The lounge itself and spa are almost a destination in their own right - the restaurant has a certain exclusive air to it, and the Spa treatments for a First passenger are pretty much on-demand and extensive. You want an hour's Thai massage? Just name your time, pretty much - it's not remotely like the BA Elemis Spa experience!
Aug 10, 2017, 8:03 am
#5
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
Programs: *G, OWS
Posts: 214
I would personally look at TG for Oceania - they fly into BKK from multiple entry points in Europe, then onward from there, and usually availability is good far out. The only downside is that the planes themselves are sometimes a little tired (although the number refurbished is rapidly becoming the norm), and substitutions are common, so you may not know exactly what you get until very close to departure time.
However, to balance that the F service is impeccable at BKK, with private check-in, security and an escort to the F lounge. The lounge itself and spa are almost a destination in their own right - the restaurant has a certain exclusive air to it, and the Spa treatments for a First passenger are pretty much on-demand and extensive. You want an hour's Thai massage? Just name your time, pretty much - it's not remotely like the BA Elemis Spa experience!
However, to balance that the F service is impeccable at BKK, with private check-in, security and an escort to the F lounge. The lounge itself and spa are almost a destination in their own right - the restaurant has a certain exclusive air to it, and the Spa treatments for a First passenger are pretty much on-demand and extensive. You want an hour's Thai massage? Just name your time, pretty much - it's not remotely like the BA Elemis Spa experience!
My personal travel plans depend on the release schedules. Oceania and South America I would do combined with scuba diving, leading to a longer time at the destination. This means I’d need to be able to book the ticket quite a bit in advance – making most of the airlines (probably) unsuitable.
Short notice I could swing a city trip to North America or Asia with a few days at the destination…
Aug 10, 2017, 8:33 am
#6
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 286
You can book with M&B the same F award space as with any other *A award program.
There are the usual restrictions.
Like LX releases no award space to any award program besides M&M, LH release its award space to "foreign" award programs earliest 14 days in advance, ...
There are the usual restrictions.
Like LX releases no award space to any award program besides M&M, LH release its award space to "foreign" award programs earliest 14 days in advance, ...
Aug 10, 2017, 8:39 am
#7
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
Programs: *G, OWS
Posts: 214
You can book with M&B the same F award space as with any other *A award program.
There are the usual restrictions.
Like LX releases no award space to any award program besides M&M, LH release its award space to "foreign" award programs earliest 14 days in advance, ...
There are the usual restrictions.
Like LX releases no award space to any award program besides M&M, LH release its award space to "foreign" award programs earliest 14 days in advance, ...
Aug 10, 2017, 9:08 am
#8
Community Director
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norwich, UK
Programs: A3*G, BA Gold, BD Gold (in memoriam), IHG Diamond Ambassador
Posts: 8,477
Your first list is also well out of date - BD left *A in 2012 and was defunct shortly after following the takeover by BA/IAG! Similarly, you can add AI to the mix because they offer F.
I would strongly advise against taking UA to North America in F - not only will the cabin be distinctly underwhelming, the ground services will in no way match the standards of those from the Asian carriers, and frankly if this is likely to be your only F for a while, you should embrace the whole experience and not feel you wasted your miles/money.
You asked for recommendations on how to get to Oceania and North American, and when bookings would be available. As far as I can see, the question you asked is being answered - TG has the best availability, SQ very little (you won't get a suite on the A380, for example, and many of their planes on regional routes don't have F). The rest fall somewhere in the middle, and you're only going to know by utilising the various tools out there. I prefer the ANA website tool because I'm used to driving it, but there are others such as AC (Aeroplan), UA and AwardNexus.
If you can come back with very specific plans, we can probably help more - but at the moment it's a bit too open-ended.
Aug 10, 2017, 9:50 am
#9
Original Poster
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Germany
Programs: *G, OWS
Posts: 214
As has been said, A3 has access to the same F award space, under the same rules, as any other *A member. What makes it more difficult is the M+B rules around stopovers, which means you can't so easily find convoluted routes to get F where you want it.
Your first list is also well out of date - BD left *A in 2012 and was defunct shortly after following the takeover by BA/IAG! Similarly, you can add AI to the mix because they offer F.
I would strongly advise against taking UA to North America in F - not only will the cabin be distinctly underwhelming, the ground services will in no way match the standards of those from the Asian carriers, and frankly if this is likely to be your only F for a while, you should embrace the whole experience and not feel you wasted your miles/money.
You asked for recommendations on how to get to Oceania and North American, and when bookings would be available. As far as I can see, the question you asked is being answered - TG has the best availability, SQ very little (you won't get a suite on the A380, for example, and many of their planes on regional routes don't have F). The rest fall somewhere in the middle, and you're only going to know by utilising the various tools out there. I prefer the ANA website tool because I'm used to driving it, but there are others such as AC (Aeroplan), UA and AwardNexus.
If you can come back with very specific plans, we can probably help more - but at the moment it's a bit too open-ended.
Your first list is also well out of date - BD left *A in 2012 and was defunct shortly after following the takeover by BA/IAG! Similarly, you can add AI to the mix because they offer F.
I would strongly advise against taking UA to North America in F - not only will the cabin be distinctly underwhelming, the ground services will in no way match the standards of those from the Asian carriers, and frankly if this is likely to be your only F for a while, you should embrace the whole experience and not feel you wasted your miles/money.
You asked for recommendations on how to get to Oceania and North American, and when bookings would be available. As far as I can see, the question you asked is being answered - TG has the best availability, SQ very little (you won't get a suite on the A380, for example, and many of their planes on regional routes don't have F). The rest fall somewhere in the middle, and you're only going to know by utilising the various tools out there. I prefer the ANA website tool because I'm used to driving it, but there are others such as AC (Aeroplan), UA and AwardNexus.
If you can come back with very specific plans, we can probably help more - but at the moment it's a bit too open-ended.
I'm happy to update the listing (or we can create a wiki out of it) since the information seems to be only available in various different posts all across the various subforums.
For the available F cabins I copied the info from the *A thread on the Airlines providing it.
Aug 10, 2017, 5:39 pm
#11
Community Director
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norwich, UK
Programs: A3*G, BA Gold, BD Gold (in memoriam), IHG Diamond Ambassador
Posts: 8,477
Please understand I'm not yet trying to book anything - just collect the available information in one place to simplify planning later on (and help others who look for the same information)
I'm happy to update the listing (or we can create a wiki out of it) since the information seems to be only available in various different posts all across the various subforums.
For the available F cabins I copied the info from the *A thread on the Airlines providing it.
I'm happy to update the listing (or we can create a wiki out of it) since the information seems to be only available in various different posts all across the various subforums.
For the available F cabins I copied the info from the *A thread on the Airlines providing it.
LH/LX/SQ have no F availability, other than LH may release some two weeks ahead of travel if they want to fill seats - which most people won't be able to take advantage of.
Everyone else releases around a year ahead, some at T-365, some T-355 depending on their own revenue ticket policies. For those, you need to grab the inventory as soon as you can. Some will only release a couple of seats, others like TG probably more. They will all decide to release more if their revenue management departments decide it's to their benefit to fill seats if they can't sell them to revenue customers. That's totally unpredictable as well and they might appear from months out at quiet times to never at busy times. They might even appear and get withdrawn again as that airline's needs evolve.
The reason there's no central source for this is because of this unpredictability. It's why the BD forum, when it existed, had an enormously valuable thread on how to search for award inventory using the ANA website. It's why pay sites like ExpertFlyer get subscribers, because they highlight inventory for you so you can grab it first. There is no magic formula, there are no rules - if you see space and you can fit your plans around it, grab it! The key is to be as flexible as possible. If you're determined to travel on a single, particular day in the year you'll likely be disappointed. If you can flex your arrangements by a month or two, you'll have a good chance.
Aug 17, 2017, 6:56 pm
#12
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Tokyo
Programs: Marriott Plat, HH G,Hyatt E,*A Gold, OW Emerald.
Posts: 3,023
Long post alert!
Regardless of what miles you accumulate, you either need to be flexible with your dates or be able to firmly fix the dates a year out. Otherwise, you wont find award availability that suits your plans exactly as you want them.
With Awards, I suggest you make your plans around the availability you get, to save you the stress of looking for awards
1. Oceania routes are popular, and there is a whole forum about the pursuit of awards from down under (australianfrequentflyers)
Forget about summer 2017/2018 this coming December. Those were booked way back in February and March (I did book too!). Start planning for summer 2018/2019, unless you are flexible, and monitor availability every day, like a hawk!
You might be lucky and find some F award space after someone else cancels, so I wouldnt rule out this coming December just yet.
2. You have a lot of competition from other Star Alliance miles that are much easier to accumulate (United, Avianca, ANA, SQ miles etc.) and much easier (less restrictive) to use than A3 miles. So, expect award space on popular routes to be rare.
3. Note the restrictions and rules for A3 miles. No stopover (>24hrs), only one transit (<24hrs), fuel charges all apply (you might cry a little when you try to book LH F or NH F). Germany airports have high taxes too (FRA/MUC etc.)
So, from Europe to Down under in F, you only about 9 airlines to chose from.
-NH(ANA) - Unless you like Krug, it is minimalistic.
-AI - You will likely regret using your miles on them. DEL airport has no premium F ground service, and F is a hit or miss experience.
-CA - Similarly, you will likely regret using your miles on them. PEK airport transfers are a mess, no premium F ground service, and F is just the same as C.
-OZ - Not bad, but not memorable. ICN airport has no premium F ground service, lounges are nothing to write home about, and you willl get a recliner business seat on the ICN-SYD/MEL leg.
-TG - Great if you get F/F on both legs (FRA/CDG/LHR - BKK - SYD). Only SYD has F.
Great ground services, with the buggy and massage in BKK lounge. Catch is to make sure you get F on the BKK-SYD leg. As written above, you have competition on this popular route, but availability is usually good.
Business Only:
NZ - (Doubt you can book this. LHR-LAX-ACK)
SQ - Out of secondary markets like IST, and into Australia on the 772 inferior product.
BR(EVA) - Availability is scarce, Taipei transit is nothing to write about, and into Australia on the 772 inferior product.
But they serve Dom Perignon in business class!
TK/LX/LO - Unless you start from IST/ZRH/WAW, you wont make it to Oceania, since you would need 3 stops.
Anyway, good hunting!
Regardless of what miles you accumulate, you either need to be flexible with your dates or be able to firmly fix the dates a year out. Otherwise, you wont find award availability that suits your plans exactly as you want them.
With Awards, I suggest you make your plans around the availability you get, to save you the stress of looking for awards
1. Oceania routes are popular, and there is a whole forum about the pursuit of awards from down under (australianfrequentflyers)
Forget about summer 2017/2018 this coming December. Those were booked way back in February and March (I did book too!). Start planning for summer 2018/2019, unless you are flexible, and monitor availability every day, like a hawk!
You might be lucky and find some F award space after someone else cancels, so I wouldnt rule out this coming December just yet.
2. You have a lot of competition from other Star Alliance miles that are much easier to accumulate (United, Avianca, ANA, SQ miles etc.) and much easier (less restrictive) to use than A3 miles. So, expect award space on popular routes to be rare.
3. Note the restrictions and rules for A3 miles. No stopover (>24hrs), only one transit (<24hrs), fuel charges all apply (you might cry a little when you try to book LH F or NH F). Germany airports have high taxes too (FRA/MUC etc.)
So, from Europe to Down under in F, you only about 9 airlines to chose from.
-NH(ANA) - Unless you like Krug, it is minimalistic.
-AI - You will likely regret using your miles on them. DEL airport has no premium F ground service, and F is a hit or miss experience.
-CA - Similarly, you will likely regret using your miles on them. PEK airport transfers are a mess, no premium F ground service, and F is just the same as C.
-OZ - Not bad, but not memorable. ICN airport has no premium F ground service, lounges are nothing to write home about, and you willl get a recliner business seat on the ICN-SYD/MEL leg.
-TG - Great if you get F/F on both legs (FRA/CDG/LHR - BKK - SYD). Only SYD has F.
Great ground services, with the buggy and massage in BKK lounge. Catch is to make sure you get F on the BKK-SYD leg. As written above, you have competition on this popular route, but availability is usually good.
Business Only:
NZ - (Doubt you can book this. LHR-LAX-ACK)
SQ - Out of secondary markets like IST, and into Australia on the 772 inferior product.
BR(EVA) - Availability is scarce, Taipei transit is nothing to write about, and into Australia on the 772 inferior product.
But they serve Dom Perignon in business class!
TK/LX/LO - Unless you start from IST/ZRH/WAW, you wont make it to Oceania, since you would need 3 stops.
Anyway, good hunting!
Sep 11, 2017, 11:58 pm
#13
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 64
Great initiative and answers!
I have a few additional questions to this:
1. What are the best major airports to fly from in Europe tax-wise, since FRA and MUC have high taxes? Of course I'm interested in smallest YQ surcharge as well, etc. (Personally I'm going Europe-Oceania to utilise 2 legs and only 1 connection as much as possible - or the other way round, should that be better)
2. ANA minimalistic, really? I have only seen very good reviews about their F (cabin, at least). How is availability generally with them, going say FRA-HND on F and HND-SYD in C?
3. Recliner seat on ICN-SYD with Asiana C? I have only read about modern flat bed seats on their A380 which they seem to fly with mostly on ICN-SYD.
I have a few additional questions to this:
3. Note the restrictions and rules for A3 miles. No stopover (>24hrs), only one transit (<24hrs), fuel charges all apply (you might cry a little when you try to book LH F or NH F). Germany airports have high taxes too (FRA/MUC etc.)
So, from Europe to Down under in F, you only about 9 airlines to chose from.
-NH(ANA) - Unless you like Krug, it is minimalistic.
-OZ - Not bad, but not memorable. ICN airport has no premium F ground service, lounges are nothing to write home about, and you willl get a recliner business seat on the ICN-SYD/MEL leg.
So, from Europe to Down under in F, you only about 9 airlines to chose from.
-NH(ANA) - Unless you like Krug, it is minimalistic.
-OZ - Not bad, but not memorable. ICN airport has no premium F ground service, lounges are nothing to write home about, and you willl get a recliner business seat on the ICN-SYD/MEL leg.
2. ANA minimalistic, really? I have only seen very good reviews about their F (cabin, at least). How is availability generally with them, going say FRA-HND on F and HND-SYD in C?
3. Recliner seat on ICN-SYD with Asiana C? I have only read about modern flat bed seats on their A380 which they seem to fly with mostly on ICN-SYD.
Sep 12, 2017, 12:15 am
#14
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Netherlands
Programs: KL Platinum; A3 Gold
Posts: 28,741
For all other EU airports with *A F service, taxes are lower - many countries don't have an equivalent of APD - and overall, FRA/MUC don't really stand out as being any higher than anywhere else - particularly in comparison to the outlier of LHR.
Given the scarcity of F awards for A3 flyers, worrying about taxes is a little beside the point. You just grab what you can....it's not like you are so spoiled for choice you can use tax as a valid input constraint!
Last edited by irishguy28; Sep 12, 2017 at 12:22 am
Sep 12, 2017, 12:27 am
#15
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 64
Thanks a lot for your quick reply, irishguy! I totally get your point, and a quick search with ita matrix revealed MXP as the least expensive airport in Europe to fly F from with Thai. However, the sums are not that high (it seems at least!? about 150 Euro per person in total for FRA-BKK-SYD for example) that positioning flights would pay off. I live in Berlin, so FRA or MUC would be the best anyway (and easier to reach by other means, in case of strikes, bad weather etc.).
My tendencies until today was to try Asiana FRA-ICN-SYD, because of good availability and possibility to take an almost free and well organised city tour in Seoul, but they do have far higher surcharges than the other airlines (almost 300 € per person oneway). I also wonder about those recliner seats in C, even if today is the first time I read it..
Edit: LH F would be out of the question anyway I guess, since this is a trip I would have to plan far in advance, but LH do not release seats until 2 weeks before when the second leg would surely have no availability even in C, and as I have understood it, modify an award booking with Miles&Bonus is not an option.
My tendencies until today was to try Asiana FRA-ICN-SYD, because of good availability and possibility to take an almost free and well organised city tour in Seoul, but they do have far higher surcharges than the other airlines (almost 300 € per person oneway). I also wonder about those recliner seats in C, even if today is the first time I read it..
Edit: LH F would be out of the question anyway I guess, since this is a trip I would have to plan far in advance, but LH do not release seats until 2 weeks before when the second leg would surely have no availability even in C, and as I have understood it, modify an award booking with Miles&Bonus is not an option.