Matthew,

I don't think the airlines are the losers at all in the case of Goldpoints. I think the losers are, from biggest loser down:

The average user of the frequency program who never benefits because the opportunity was destroyed by the scorched earth approach of the multimillion point gatherers. This is the main issue for me. It is not FAIR (and I am not one of these people, I read FT so have the opportunity to get in quick if I wanted to)

Second, all frequency program users, except the rapists themselves, lose when dilution comes along or further offers are scrapped in fear of the vacuum cleaner approach used by some people. This DOES affect me and my future relations with frequency programs. This affects almost everyone except the super greedy (it does affect them as well but they are very well insulated by their greed).

Third, I feel it affects this community by promoting and propogating dishonesty, deceit, and the valuing of the profit motive above all (including 'community') Now, their are relative levels with regard to dishonesty... for example, my criticism of milespy is limited to a lack of transparency and the effect of program raping... the original idea of this thread crosses the line into dishonest and deceitful. Both I feel disrespect the community, one for outright dishonesty, the other because it is reselling what is freely available here and elsewhere (I don't deny your right to do that, I just don't like it).

If I understand correctly the airlines are winners on this particular deal because they sell the points to Goldpoints at a price they think they can carry. They'll just dilute the programs if the outstanding miles gets too big, easy enough and done before. Once again, it's everyone but the rapist who pays for that adjustment.

I keep trying to bring up the idea of self limiting, even only if for self interest, and the community can also act, albeitly less effectively, as a self limiting entity, and yet very few responses address this. Rapid, widespread communication, afforded by venues such as this and other FF info sources, combined with a minority who will 'empty the shelves' for themselves (what an inconsiderate approach) WILL lead to damage of FF programs and in some cases already has. You're right, Milespy is a small player in that dynamic, but it does represent it and the discussion was started on that topic. It is subsidiary to the overall greedbag mentality of some, ranging from simple dumb personal blind greed (buying as many points for yourself as possible with no regard to consequence on the larger dynamic) to the morally clueless who think it perfecty appropriate, merely because it CAN be done, to spend $100 on an initial purchase and 'recycle' it ad infinitum. That that approach would strike anyone as either fair or reasonable, that anyone would think they are entitled to it merely because the other player is a business, is positivelty stunning for its indication that the person behind it demonstrates absolutely value system by which to limit behavior. It's only secondary to me that it is questionably criminal.

Then you've got people already planning to cancel the magazines. I'm sorry, but weren't the points intended for actual customers, you know, people who buy things they want and are rewarded for it. Silly me.

I thought it classic, just after 9-11, when people over at the UA forum were 'thinking out of the box' indicating that this thinking was in order the 'help' UA...the suggestions amounted to what would maximize their own benefit and they were selling it as compassion for the airline (funny, the airline is a business too, as is Milespy and by that criteria, used so freely to defend greedy action, the demise of UA or failure of Milespy should be a joyous event, perfectly proper in the universe of dog-eat- dog described by the apologists for program rape... funny it doesn't apply to people known here(guess what, real people work at and own and invest in Goldpoints and UA) or to programs the rapists have a vested interest in... shouldn't we cheer the demise of UA et al as just market forces working themselves out just like at Goldpoints, Valuemags, and Hallmark et al... you may get those wishes) when in fact it isn't compassion or concern at all, it's just more greed dressed up as thoughtfulness. These same people also have plenty of helpful suggestions that there should never be a service cut of any kind because it drives away high revenue business and degrades the experience(gee, wonder if all those points is putting pressure on the bottom line necessitating cuts somewhere). With due respect to the few high rev flyers who could make that complaint, most come from people who never have and never will pay front cabin fare.

Well, I got caught by my usual tendency to multiple parenthetical thought, so I apologize for the rambling, Rosanna Rosannadanna, nature of my screed. Nonetheless, blind grees remains morally wrong, ungenerous, and ultimately destructive.

Matthew, of course this began addressed to you and then wandered off into the general, please don't take the whole as a personal address to you.

Edited for (attempted) clarity

[This message has been edited by wormwood (edited 12-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by wormwood (edited 12-30-2001).]