[QUOTE=Peter N-H]As I said, there are always people who simply won't be told, so I'll make this my last post on this exhausting subject.

The logic is apparently supposed to go like this:

I was twice pressured for a tip by a bell boy

so

I gave him money

so

Therefore there is tipping of bell boys at these two hotels

so

Therefore across China you must tip bell boys.

This is entirely self-fulfilling, and proves nothing of the kind, although it does demonstrate that you need to stand up to get the services you've paid for in these two hotels, not hand over free money, and that they should be avoided.

This is not a scientific question needed logic thought; when you go to China, you have to respect or follow local customaries, such as usually no tipping, but in some good hotels adopted western management system, you have to pay tipps to bell boys who did service to you by your request, it's a fact also is accepted as a rule.

But in the one example being discussed shmj is not a hotel guest, and not checking in, but expecting help to make a delivery of an abnormally heavy item. Of course in a better hotel assistance would be forthcoming straight away, and it ought to have been in this case, too. But the difference in the situation is very obvious (and the subtleties of service do evade the Chinese in most cases, as has been remarked above). If a bell boy came to help me deliver a heavy item when I wasn't a guest, I wouldn't think it unreasonable to pay him something. But in the overwhelming majority of hotels in China I would expect the money to be refused at least once. If the guest himself came down to the lobby and requested the assistance, I wouldn't expect to pay anything. It's the bell boy's job to help the guest.

I think I need offer more details then Peter N-H would not misunderstand. Actually I did check in for my friend in that 2 situations, I should be thought as a guest for that hotels. In garden hotel, I asked the receiption girl where to find someone to help to take the heavy bag, I was told to book a bell boy, then the following was like what I said before. If a guest doesn't need to pay tips then no reason the receiption girl asked the guest to book a bell boy.

But these two hotels are not better hotels--just hotels that think they are better, and prove themselves not to be precisely through the behaviour described (and much else). They are both Chinese-run, in metropolises, and they see a lot of gullible foreigners, newly arrived in China, giving away free money, which maximises the tendency toward scams of all kinds, including taxi-line shenanigans and other issues.

I wonder how Peter N-H claimed he knew much about Chinese good hotels, if anybody checks on internet or tour guide book, it's easily to get introduction about (Okura) Garden hotel (usually we call Garden Hotel or 花园饭店) http://www.gardenhotelshanghai.com and Jinjiang Tower Hotel http://english.ctrip.com/supermarket...ate=2006-07-25, they are both 5-star hotels located in glitterring Huaihuai Road commercial center, any foreigner travellers who knew Shanghai well should know the 2 famous hotels very well. Some countries leaders, stars and other famous persons stayed there once. Garden hotel is run by Janpense, not Chinese.

These are precisely the kind of hotels that ought to be avoided, especially if they try to intimidate Chinese women from out of town, too. It's highly unlikely anything of the kind would be tried with a Chinese man, and not with any woman who simply told them to get lost, either. But in such poorly managed hotels they have little to lose by just standing there and seeing what happens, especially if they can make it into a face issue--unlikely to be a problem for a foreigner. If told to go, of course the bell boy would have gone.

I think some words should not come from a gentleman. As I have said, the 2 hotels I went to are very good hotels, the guests there are respected very well by all stuff in the hotel, including the bell boys; surely I can refuse to pay, just told the bell boy to leave my room; same situation also can happen when you are in US or any other western countries, you can refuse to pay tips to waiters at restaurant or hotel, you would not be arrested, but will you do it? So because I was hinted that I should pay tips , would I still refuse to give that bell boy? If I need more help, how to get easily and comfortably? As a traveller or guest, you will have to think about reality when you are in real situation. Actually, the tipps only exists in high level hotels, it's hard to find tipps in other hotels.

The lesson to be learned here is from the Shanghainese woman's own failure to understand what was going on. She was bewildered as to why the bell boy was still standing there because she has no experience of tipping, and that's because there is no tipping in China. Had she stood up for herself, she wouldn't have had to pay, and she should have called reception and complained at this behaviour. Her failure to hold out doesn't mean that there was any right to expect a gratuity or that she should have paid. It only tells us that she did pay, and nor does it tell us anything about the situation in China as a whole.

Actually it's not a lesson, just a funny new experience. RMB10 is samll amount, but the small amount tip means this hotel you check in is a high level hotel, they charge you high expense on room, they charge you tips on service, if really there is good service. This is a Western way used in China, should be accepted easily by Westerns.

In no case whatsoever in any place did I receive the slightest hint that a tip was required. In no case three-star or above was I denied help with my bags, except that in one case the hotel was so new it hadn't even hired a bell hop yet and so one of the receptionists, a delicate girl who would have been unable to lift my bag had it been necessary, insisted on offering help. In many cases help was pressed upon me whether I wanted it or not. Of course the service was often lacklustre in other ways, but even down at the three-star level, it improves a little every year, and what I'm describing here is the reality of the overwhelming majority of China, away from gullible tour group land; away from the overly familiar second-rate properties of the key tourist and business destinations with their grubbily exploitative attitudes.

But in the Beijing and Shanghai the hotels I stayed in were truly top grade with not even the hint of a request for a tip (not that I would have given a tip if I'd ended up in the Garden or Jinjiang--there is no tipping in China), and beyond the areas infested with the newly arrived and gullible, in the overwhelming majority of China, the question of tipping simply never arises. Because there is no tipping in China, and, oddly enough, no special dispensation for bell boys, who are salaried staff like everyone else.

If you receive bad service from bell boys or anyone else, the thing to do is stand up for yourself, not hand over free money. The reception desk, assistant manager, or duty manager will soon kick people into line if they are making his or her guests unhappy.

But let it rest. Tip if you want to, but please don't advise others to do so.

From above words, tips or not in a good hotel in China, I think the best way to a foreign traveller to China is to make clear from the receiption desk of the local hotel whether the tips for a service is necessary, it's easy. I think here is to advice something according to our experiences, no one can claim they knew everything, various experiences would give other people good suggestions, this is the usuage of the forum. Do not try to shut up other person's mouth as it's impossible everyone should follow you then they can have the chance to advise others, if things like this, it's not public forum, but Mr.Know it all's teaching class.