Thanks for the interesting discussion. My responses are below.
Originally Posted by
MS02113
By most accounts, Conrad New York Midtown offers a nice hard product. There were some frankly over-the-top complaints about service here and on TripAdvisor shortly after the property rebranded, but those isolated criticisms don't make for a "pretty bad" hotel. And yes, Conrad New York Downtown was previously an Embassy Suites, but the renovations were rather substantial and again the hard product is nice. In my experience, service there is fine for NYC. What limited service hotels are better? Seems like quite an exaggeration.
The Conrad Midtown post reno are frustrating in many ways (ie the bathrooms, wood flooring is OK but the white bedroom carpets are disgusting, etc). Not sure what you would consider over the top. I am just putting it in context of other hotels in NYC. These hotels exist relative to one another. I'm sure the hotel is satisfactory for pretty much everyone. But satisfactory is not "luxury".
Originally Posted by
MS02113
I don't have any experience with Conrad Miami, but admit that it looks a bit underwhelming, even after renovations.
Especially frustrating as this is in a city where there are MANY excellent luxury hotels, and a *handful* of luxury hotels owned/operated by Marriott. I don't know why it's so hard for Hyatt/Hilton to build something decent here. Even the WA Miami location is not ideal (though it looks MUCH better than almost anything else Hilton has in the US).
Originally Posted by
MS02113
Agree there should be a distinction between the very best luxury brands and those accessible with points. Most FlyerTalk participants are more concerned with the latter, of course, and I think these hotel brand 101 threads are geared toward that audience. So while Conrad doesn't compete in the top end of the luxury market, in my view it acquits itself just fine in the points-accessible luxury pool.
I think Park Hyatt and St. Regis are in the same class of hotel as Four Seasons, Rosewood, Mandarin Oriental, etc. Park Hyatt is definitely worse on average but I think it is fair to group it with Four Seasons as the same class of hotel. Conrad (and JW/W Hotels) are not even in the same class of hotel as St. Regis so I find it very difficult to call Conrad a luxury flag in anything but name only.
Four Seasons has 46 Forbes 5 star hotels out of 116 properties. Conrad has 0 Forbes 5 star hotels out of 46 properties. If we assume the same proportion (which I don't agree with as quality is harder to maintain as property count increases), Four Seasons would have 18-19 Forbes 5 star hotels with 46 properties. There are11 St. Regis 5 star hotels for its 46 properties.
So we have 3 types of hotels: one with 0 Forbes 5 stars, one with 11 Forbes 5 stars, and one with 18 Forbes 5 stars. I guess my opinion is just that it does not make sense to group the 0 with the 11 and 18.
Also, I agree that these types of critical ratings are, in many ways, flawed. However, Forbes Travel (like the Michelin guide) is, at the very least, a strong indication for overall quality for a brand. I wouldn't say a difference of 3-4 Forbes 5 star hotels is a big difference. However, a difference of18 (or even 11) is too large to ignore.
Originally Posted by
MS02113
I'm convinced that Hilton would not have flagged some of the current and former U.S. properties under Waldorf Astoria had the collection brands existed fifteen years ago. It's baffling that the San Juan, Boca Raton, Key West, Boulders, etc. properties soldiered on for so long when they were so clearly not up to standard.
Completely agree and IMO, it really hurts the positioning and perception of the brand. WA has so few hotels to begin with. To have this many sub-par properties within such a tiny portfolio should have been unacceptable. It's even worse when you consider that this is Hilton's top tier flag and their only (imo) true luxury flag.
I think there is even worse variability in the Conrad flag but it is much less disappointing to me because it was never on that level to begin with. I really feel like Hilton took WA down a level over time (and Marriott with Ritz Carlton). Very sad.
Originally Posted by
MS02113
But I'm hopeful that New York, given its dramatically reduced footprint and yearslong renovations, will be top quality upon reopening, along the lines of Beverly Hills.
I've seen the renovations on the condo side. Condo sales have been very poor at a time when Manhattan new development real estate sales are exploding. Prices are the same as when I first looked last year (peak pandemic) vs. most NYC new development (up 25%-45% over the same inflationary time period). I will definitely put a stay at the WA NY when it reopens to see for myself. However, I'm not expecting anything to uplift this hotel from Forbes 4 star to Forbes 5 star.
Although, frankly, I am not excited about most of the new luxury NYC hotels. Aman New York seems like a step down for the flag. I am looking forward to the Ritz Carlton NoMad due to its great location but I'll also reserve judgment there too.