Originally Posted by
jsloan
Simple. The customer doesn't care about D:0, at all. Barring some ridiculous scenario straight out of the movies -- "whoo, we departed; the corrupt foreign police can't touch us now" -- it matters to zero people on the plane whether or not they depart on time.
Now, A:0? That matters. And you can argue that D:0 impacts A:0 -- all other things being equal, the earlier you depart, the earlier you'll arrive. But sometimes other things aren't equal. In the OP's case, is it more customer friendly to get every passenger save one to SAN ten minutes ahead of schedule, or to get every passenger to SAN exactly on schedule? If UA were monitoring A:0 instead of D:0, they may be more willing to hold flights when there's no impact to A:0 than they are today.
Now, again, there are a lot of factors, and a 5 minute departure delay could easily turn into a 25 minute arrival delay, so I'm not arguing in favor of a blanket "always wait for nearby pax" rule. But it's plain to see that a focus on D:0 is not customer-centric; UA should focus on A:0 instead.
I care. I also often travel with a toddler. Guess what - every minute longer on the plane is another minute she’s got to be in a constrained space. If we can be there 5 minutes less, it can often mean a big difference. I think Fellow pax would also appreciate it if there is one less opportunity for a tantrum (to be fair, daughter is a pretty good traveler most of the time, but she has her flights).
Originally Posted by
spin88
while you are getting a lot of "its the breaks" replies, In my 20+ years of extensive travel I've only seen one airline that does not make an effort to hold A/C, and that is UA post 3/2/12.
I’ve had a plane held for me before...yes, on UA. I’ve had other times where the dooor closes and flight goes on time, without me. Guess what, in my 20+ years of being an FF, the only carrier that has attempted to deny me boarding with a valid BP in hand at the gate is DL. All airlines are going to judge the factors differently, but sorry, to say UA is doesn’t hold flights sometimes is just not true L they certainly do. Your personal experience is not necessarily representative of everyone’s.
Originally Posted by
Bear96
"Sometimes" UA will too.
Correct.
Originally Posted by
chermorg
I think many people do want departure and boarding to be on time. If I am told boarding begins at X and ends at Y, I don’t want to leave the United Club or the restaurant I’m sitting at to be at the gate at X just to be told we won’t be boarding until later. Furthermore, I don’t want to be boarded sitting on a plane for 30 minutes after the “departure time” - I’d rather be sitting in the terminal than on a plane. Especially if we’re holding D:0 for passengers with risky/tight connections for no reason - T+0 turns into T+5 and screws everything up. Maybe I’m the odd one out. But I definitely care more about D:0 than A:0 in most cases - A:0 can be affected by many things outside the airline’s control, but if they get the plane out at D:0 then it’s not their fault if ATC decides to make them hold for an hour at the destination - they did what they could to get A:0 (by getting D:0).
and t doesn’t necessarily turn into T+5. As mentioned, can be worse...you can lose a slot, weight and balance has to be re-run, etc. not to mention the flight inbound to the gate now has to wait, with 100 other pax potentially having connections, and some of them likely to start a thread about why they have to wait for a gate.
Originally Posted by
Austin787
Not limited to United. I have misconnected in DFW several times when my flight to DFW was delayed and AA did not hold the connecting flight. This included one time I was flying in a group of 50 people and our plane to DFW was delayed and AA didn't hold our connecting flight which was the last of the day. So all 50 of us had to overnight in DFW.
yikes. Would think for 50 folks they would have some consideration, depending on how close it was. But yes, AA apparently makes its calculations, too.
Originally Posted by
threeoh
Publishing the "plane starts moving" time makes some amount of sense -- it's the one goal everyone in the system shares and participates in (pax, GA, FA, Pilots, ground crew, ATC, etc.).
Publishing "last moment you can present yourself for boarding" also makes some amount of sense -- it's the promise the airline is making, "show up by this time and we will get you on the flight". Obviously from threads like this even frequently flyers who are 1K don't fully understand the T-15 rule, and I can guarantee you that most travelers don't. I know I've heard my share of irate passengers at the podium saying "but the plane is still here and it's before departure time", and I know you have too. I'm sure some people think it's T-15 is when you are requested to show up but they can't offload you until T-0. Even though airlines do a lot of work, publishing "boarding ends" times and a very clear CoC, signs at the gates, etc. It still causes confusion.
One reason it causes confusion is because different airlines do it differently. Southwest is T-10, United is T-15 (though at least one person on this thread thought it was T-10), Delta shuttle flights are T-5, int'l is T-30, some airlines are T-45....etc. It is not a customer-friendly solution to have to read a 60+ page CoC for every operating carrier in my itinerary and memorize their cut off times. Better just to publish the cutoff time -- the time that matters to the customer.
I think if airlines -- as a group -- started publishing cut-off time rather than release-parking-brake time, people would adapt. After all, people casually say "my flight takes off at 10:00am" but they don't complain when the flight actually takes off at 10:15 after boarding on-time.
Everyone here knows that the GA has to process standbys, pilots have to run paperwork, FAs have to do safety checks. Pointing that out doesn't add to the discussion. The pilot also has to taxi to the end of the runway -- but we're ok with that happening after the published departure time.
Imagine a system where the airline published takeoff time, and then said you have to present yourself at the gate on later than 65 minutes before takeoff. That would make no sense.
I understand your point. It would be a good one if it was relying on the CoC. However, UA now clearly marks the boarding ends time on BPs. IMost people should be able to read big printed info on BPs, especially 1Ks. Airlines having delayed inbounds aside for the moment, if there are 1Ks who can’t understand the big ‘boarding ends’ time on a BP and they are late, then honestly, I kind of don’t feel bad for them, especially since there are many on here who admit to staying in the lounge until the last possible moment.
of course, this is a bit OT for the ‘should UA hold flights past this time for late inbounds.
I feel that this thread is not surfacing a lot of new information about how such decisions are made at this point, and is just collecting people's anecdotes / opinions on whether flights should be held <x> minutes or not (for repeating reasons). Signal to noise is dropping steadily.
Time to wrap up this thread?
only the people in airline ops can really answer this. We can guess at many of the factors. How much each factor impacts this is going to vary based on specific circumstances - likely things like how many pax, what are alternatives, is there a plane load of pax waiting for this gate. Who are going to be affected, etc.
Originally Posted by
SportsTech
I agree with the OP: passengers who misconnect because inbound flights are late deserve as much consideration as the airline can possibly offer. Most, if not all, of us on this board have been screwed by a GA/FA combo that closed a gate long before pushback actually happens - and, as LarryJ so helpfully reminds us, D:00 is only an internal metric, it's arrival time that counts for FAA on-time reports.The fact that we've all experienced it doesn't make it right. I say, if the plane hasn't left the gate, give the pilot the option of accommodating the passenger. He's the only one who actually knows, at that point, whether it will jeopardize a timely arrival.
I am afraid, however, that in Unitedworld today, no one is giving employees permission to make passenger-friendly judgment calls.
As much consideration as they can offer is subjective. How much consideration should be given to an single late passenger, for example, compared to the 20, 30 or 40 pax who have connections on the other end that could be at risk.l (or those on the other aircraft waiting to deplane at the gate srtill being occupied by the one being held).
Originally Posted by
tarheelnj
There are other factors beyond an on-time arrival that connecting passengers should consider. Like when there's no one to drive the jetway. Or your flight is the one where they're training a new jetway driver and it takes multiple attempts. Or (for gate checked bags) it takes a significantly long time for the bags to come up. Or (in the case of EWR connections between Terminals A & C) the bus driver wants to wait for the bus to fill up before departing even when you say you have a tight connection.
I make sure to have at least an hour, 2 for EWR. Everyone else can make their own judgements on what is appropriate. Let’s not forget, MCT is what the airline is willing to book you on and take responsibility for, not what would be sensible for all pax.
Originally Posted by
COSPILOT
FWIW, United often holds the plane for late arriving bags and cargo. Heard that on many flights. Amazing that its ok to hold the plane for cargo, but not people...
Is this true? I’ve known UA to move bags pretty quickly..I’ve been on late inbounds where I’ve had to run, and it leaves on time and my bags have made it. Are we sure they are holding for ‘late cargo’ or just waiting until too late to load cargo/bags already there. I’ve definitley seen that happen before.