Originally Posted by
MSPeconomist
The rules for duty time are complicated and AFAIK can be somewhat different for pilots versus FAs. Also AFAIK some of the rules are mandated by the FAA for safety reasons but others are bargained contract provisions.
Once I was on a TPAC flight (not UA) where the FAs timed out but had the choice of doing the flight anyway or staying in Tokyo....
It isn't so much as different "rules" set by the FAA vs Union contract as it is the "limit" set for each rule.
It's much more complicated than this, but (for example)...
The FAA sets limits on the max amount of time a crew member can fly per day, month and year. These limits are the law and can not be exceeded.
In contract negotiations, the Union may negotiate a lower limit on any/all of the day/month/year limits in exchange for some provision the company wants. These Union limits can be exceeded (as long as the corresponding FAA limit isn't exceeded) if the crew member states they're willing to operate the trip. Agreeing to take the trip in such a situation is the crew member doing the company a favor (and probably them wanting to get back home
). The airline can not coerce the employee to take the trip.
Therefore:
Originally Posted by
Often1
The crew time rules are all published, so easy to study and learn...
...is simply not true.
The FAA effectively sets the "max". These are published but by no means easy to study and learn. It's not only a "max time" but how to define the "start" of the time. Let's say it has been determined that a given flight must depart the gate by 8:03 or the crew times out. The flight departs at 8:02. That doesn't mean that the instant the flight encounters an additional delay (say: going around some major thunderstorms) of over a minute that the crew has now timed out. There are differences between an "absolute" max duty time versus being able to dispatch a flight "within limits".
Each individual airline, via their Ops Manual & Union contracts will have different limits and the specifics of how to define each limit. It's not published and most certainly isn't easy to comprehend given all the various angles.
While we're talking about crew "time outs" .... the industry (or at least at AA where I worked many years ago) term for "time out" is "illegal".
As in: "Ladies and Gentelmen, I'm sorry to announce a delay for today's flight, but our crew is illegal ... "
