Originally Posted by
GUWonder
What position of mine in this thread are you talking about not being supported by facts? Can't say I am a fan of having positions supported by fiction.
A statement was made:
and, based on fact, I challenged the above-stated belief as a misrepresentation.
By the way, exit control infrastructure that gets instituted for visitors has quite the history internationally of also being used as exit control infrastructure for citizens of the country too, at least from time to time. Mission creep indeed.
The US, also by the way, does have some history with exit control, even for US citizens.
I have attempted to limit my comments to the topic of the original post which was
Immigration exit controls for visitors to the United States. I posted the relevant laws and regulations that apply to
visitors to the United States. Those laws and regulations that are in black and white tend to be facts.
You and another poster chose to throw in references to child support and US passports. These have nothing to do with
Immigration exit controls for visitors to the United States.
As to what you believe to be "facts", what happens internationally in other countries does not demonstrate that it will happen in the United States. Again, laws in different countries can be and are significantly different. This means that many things that occur in other countries will not occur in the US and that works the other way as well.
You tend to challenge a lot of things here. Yet, you never back those challenges up with citations of law or even specific examples. You just say in your favorite style of double speak "I heard once from such and such that this might of happened or is possible to maybe happen" and call that a fact.
What you call a misrepresentation is me telling someone that a US Citizen is not going to be given a do not depart order using
Immigration exit controls for visitors to the United States. I can back that up with chapter and verse from the laws and regulations and I will yet again word for word.
The US, also by the way, does have some history with exit control, even for US citizens.
That is your version of a fact. How about a citation from law or an example of
Immigration exit controls for foreign visitors being used for a US Citizen being denied departure from the US for unpaid child support. Remember, that it should be
Immigration exit controls for foreign visitors since that is the topic not the State Department issuing or not issuing a passport.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/22/46
§ 46.2
Authority of departure-control officer to prevent alien's departure from the United States.
(a) No alien shall depart, or attempt to depart, from the United States if his departure would be prejudicial to the interests of the United States under the provisions of § 46.3. Any departure-control officer who knows or has reason to believe that the case of an alien in the United States comes within the provisions of § 46.3 shall temporarily prevent the departure of such alien from the United States and shall serve him with a written temporary order directing him not to depart, or attempt to depart, from the United States until notified of the revocation of the order.
(b) The written order temporarily preventing an alien, other than an enemy alien, from departing from the United States shall become final 15 days after the date of service thereof upon the alien, unless prior thereto the alien requests a hearing as hereinafter provided. At such time as the alien is served with an order temporarily preventing his departure from the United States, he shall be notified in writing concerning the provisions of this paragraph, and shall be advised of his right to request a hearing if entitled thereto under § 46.4. In the case of an enemy alien, the written order preventing departure shall become final on the date of its service upon the alien.
(c) Any alien who seeks to depart from the United States may be required, in the discretion of the departure-control officer, to be examined under oath and to submit for official inspection all documents, articles, and other property in his possession which are being removed from the United States upon, or in connection with, the alien's departure. The departure-control officer may permit such other persons, including officials of the Department of State and interpreters, to participate in such examination or inspection and may exclude from presence at such examination or inspection any person whose presence would not further the objectives of such examination or inspection. The departure-control officer shall temporarily prevent the departure of any alien who refuses to submit to such examination or inspection, and may, if necessary to cause the alien to submit to such examination or inspection, take possession of the alien's passport or other travel document or issue a subpoena requiring the alien to submit to such examination or inspection.
§ 46.3
Aliens whose departure is deemed prejudicial to the interests of the United States.
The departure from the United States of any alien within one or more of the following categories shall be deemed prejudicial to the interest of the United States:
(a) Any alien who is in possession of, and who is believed likely to disclose to unauthorized persons, information concerning the plans, preparations, equipment, or establishments for the national defense and security of the United States.
(b) Any alien who seeks to depart from the United States to engage in, or who is likely to engage in, activities of any kind designed to obstruct, impede, retard, delay or counteract the effectiveness of the national defense of the United States or the measures adopted by the United States or the United Nations for the defense of any other country.
(c) Any alien who seeks to depart from the United States to engage in, or who is likely to engage in, activities which would obstruct, impede, retard, delay, or counteract the effectiveness of any plans made or action taken by any country cooperating with the United States in measures adopted to promote the peace, defense, or safety of the United States or such other country.
(d) Any alien who seeks to depart from the United States for the purpose of organizing, directing, or participating in any rebellion, insurrection, or violent uprising in or against the United States or a country allied with the United States, or of waging war against the United States or its allies, or of destroying, or depriving the United States of sources of supplies or materials vital to the national defense of the United States, or to the effectiveness of the measures adopted by the United States for its defense, or for the defense of any other country allied with the United States.
(e) Any alien who is subject to registration for training and service in the Armed Forces of the United States and who fails to present a Registration Certificate (SSS Form No. 2) showing that he has complied with his obligation to register under the Universal Military Training and Service Act, as amended.
(f) Any alien who is a fugitive from justice on account of an offense punishable in the United States.
(g) Any alien who is needed in the United States as a witness in, or as a party to, any criminal case under investigation or pending in a court in the United States: Provided, That any alien who is a witness in, or a party to, any criminal case pending in any criminal court proceeding may be permitted to depart from the United States with the consent of the appropriate prosecuting authority, unless such alien is otherwise prohibited from departing under the provisions of this part.
(h) Any alien who is needed in the United States in connection with any investigation or proceeding being, or soon to be, conducted by any official executive, legislative, or judicial agency in the United States or by any governmental committee, board, bureau, commission, or body in the United States, whether national, state, or local.
(i) Any alien whose technical or scientific training and knowledge might be utilized by an enemy or a potential enemy of the United States to undermine and defeat the military and defensive operations of the United States or of any nation cooperating with the United States in the interests of collective security.
(j) Any alien, where doubt exists whether such alien is departing or seeking to depart from the United States voluntarily except an alien who is departing or seeking to depart subject to an order issued in extradition, exclusion, or deportation proceedings.
(k) Any alien whose case does not fall within any of the categories described in paragraphs (a) to (j), inclusive, of this section, but which involves circumstances of a similar character rendering the alien's departure prejudicial to the interests of the United States.
§ 46.4
Procedure in case of alien prevented from departing from the United States.
(a) Any alien, other than an enemy alien, whose departure has been temporarily prevented under the provisions of § 46.2 may, within 15 days of the service upon him of the written order temporarily preventing his departure, request a hearing before a special inquiry officer. The alien's request for a hearing shall be made in writing and shall be addressed to the district director having administrative jurisdiction over the alien's place of residence. If the alien's request for a hearing is timely made, the district director shall schedule a hearing before a special inquiry officer, and notice of such hearing shall be given to the alien. The notice of hearing shall, as specifically as security considerations permit, inform the alien of the nature of the case against him, shall fix the time and place of the hearing, and shall inform the alien of his right to be represented, at no expense to the Government, by counsel of his own choosing.
(b) Every alien for whom a hearing has been scheduled under paragraph (a) of this section shall be entitled (1) to appear in person before the special inquiry officer, (2) to be represented by counsel of his own choice, (3) to have the opportunity to be heard and to present evidence, (4) to cross-examine the witnesses who appear at the hearing, except that if, in the course of the examination, it appears that further examination may divulge information of a confidential or security nature, the special inquiry officer may, in his discretion, preclude further examination of the witness with respect to such matters, (5) to examine any evidence in possession of the Government which is to be considered in the disposition of the case, provided that such evidence is not of a confidential or security nature the disclosure of which would be prejudicial to the interests of the United States, (6) to have the time and opportunity to produce evidence and witnesses on his own behalf, and (7) to reasonable continuances upon request, for good cause shown.
(c) Any special inquiry officer who is assigned to conduct the hearing provided for in this section shall have the authority to: (1) Administer oaths and affirmations, (2) present and receive evidence, (3) interrogate, examine, and cross-examine under oath or affirmation both the alien and witnesses, (4) rule upon all objections to the introduction of evidence or motions made during the course of the hearing, (5) take or cause depositions to be taken, (6) issue subpoenas, and (7) take any further action consistent with applicable provisions of law, executive orders, proclamations, and regulations.
§ 46.5
Hearing procedure before special inquiry officer.
(a) The hearing before the special inquiry officer shall be conducted in accordance with the following procedure:
(1) The special inquiry officer shall advise the alien of the rights and privileges accorded him under the provisions of § 46.4.
(2) The special inquiry officer shall enter of record (i) a copy of the order served upon the alien temporarily preventing his departure from the United States, and (ii) a copy of the notice of hearing furnished the alien.
(3) The alien shall be interrogated by the special inquiry officer as to the matters considered pertinent to the proceeding, with opportunity reserved to the alien to testify thereafter in his own behalf, if he so chooses.
(4) The special inquiry officer shall present on behalf of the Government such evidence, including the testimony of witnesses and the certificates or written statements of Government officials or other persons, as may be necessary and available. In the event such certificates or statements are received in evidence, the alien may request and, in the discretion of the special inquiry officer, be given an opportunity to interrogate such officials or persons, by deposition or otherwise, at a time and place and in a manner fixed by the special inquiry officer: Provided, That when in the judgment of the special inquiry officer any evidence relative to the disposition of the case is of a confidential or security nature the disclosure of which would be prejudicial to the interests of the United States, such evidence shall not be presented at the hearing but shall be taken into consideration in arriving at a decision in the case.
(5) The alien may present such additional evidence, including the testimony of witnesses, as is pertinent and available.
(b) A complete verbatim transcript of the hearing, except statements made off the record, shall be recorded. The alien shall be entitled, upon request, to the loan of a copy of the transcript, without cost, subject to reasonable conditions governing its use.
(c) Following the completion of the hearing, the special inquiry officer shall make and render a recommended decision in the case, which shall be governed by and based upon the evidence presented at the hearing and any evidence of a confidential or security nature which the Government may have in its possession. The decision of the special inquiry officer shall recommend (1) that the temporary order preventing the departure of the alien from the United States be made final, or (2) that the temporary order preventing the departure of the alien from the United States be revoked. This recommended decision of the special inquiry officer shall be made in writing and shall set forth the officer's reasons for such decision. The alien concerned shall at his request be furnished a copy of the recommended decision of the special inquiry officer, and shall be allowed a reasonable time, not to exceed 10 days, in which to submit representations with respect thereto in writing.
(d) As soon as practicable after the completion of the hearing and the rendering of a decision by the special inquiry officer, the district director shall forward the entire record of the case, including the recommended decision of the special inquiry officer and any written representations submitted by the alien, to the regional commissioner having jurisdiction over his district. After reviewing the record, the regional commissioner shall render a decision in the case, which shall be based upon the evidence in the record and on any evidence or information of a confidential or security nature which he deems pertinent. Whenever any decision is based in whole or in part on confidential or security information not included in the record, the decision shall state that such information was considered. A copy of the regional commissioner's decision shall be furnished the alien, or his attorney or representative. No administrative appeal shall lie from the regional commissioner's decision.
(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of this part, the Administrator of the Bureau of Security and Consular Affairs referred to in section 104(b) of the Immigration and Nationality Act, or such other officers of the Department of State as he may designate, after consultation with the Commissioner, or such other officers of the Immigration and Naturalization Service as he may designate, may at any time permit the departure of an individual alien or of a group of aliens from the United States if he determines that such action would be in the national interest. If the Administrator specifically requests the Commissioner to prevent the departure of a particular alien or of a group of aliens, the Commissioner shall not permit the departure of such alien or aliens until he has consulted with the Administrator.
(f) In any case arising under §§ 46.1 to 46.7, the Administrator shall, at his request, be kept advised, in as much detail as he may indicate is necessary, of the facts and of any action taken or proposed.
All of that clearly has nothing whatsoever to do with US Citizens, US passports or unpaid child support. That is a fact.
What it does do is clearly outline how the process works, how the representation part works, and the appeal process works. All of which the other poster stated did not exist because he incorrectly attempted to establish a connection with no-fly lists that did not and does not exist.
I understand the feelings that many have with TSA and how they do business. I understand the mistrust that develops with the lack of information concerning how things work. In some cases, I share in those feelings. However, just because TSA falls under DHS does not mean the other 21 agencies that fall under DHS operate the same way. There is a wealth of information that describes how CBP will operate in most situations. CBP certainly is not perfect and I have and will point out when I personally disagree with how something was handled.
I recognize that in some cases there are better ways to do things. I also recognize that way the laws of the United States are written the agency can not do those better ways in till the laws are changed. The agency doesn't get to do that. That comes from Congress. It doesn't do much good to blame the agency when they can't do much about it.
FB