Ok, ok, i don't want to start a fight...I'm young, and that's probably why I've had a few bad experiences.....I also have a few local stories involving young Chinese guys going there for a good night - but I'm not going to tell these stories because they will get me banned for good....

Maybe I'm wrong - probably - since I do trust Moondog's expertise on things, but they do exist, and if you have no clue what you are doing, stick to the expat places. I think I just haven't heard any good stories coming out of these places and that's why I'm thinking this way....maybe because no one really comments on a good massage, but definitely will make a comment if it's bad.

Moondog - I wish I could get to BJ, but I am tied down to a (good) job here for the next year at least. Sadly, I think I've been to BJ maybe 5 times in my life, even though I've been to Jinan 10 times this year at least.