Originally Posted by
florin
I disagree with some of your premises.
You are associating two things (border control/immigration in the EU and the EURO as a currency) and I don't think there is necessarily a correlation. In fact, the Eurozone is not the same as EU which in turn is not the same as Schengen. If you do believe there is some correlation, then please explain it.
No, I am not. You are assuming that I do not know the difference. It's hard to reason with someone who makes such assumptions. I am quite familiar with ECM, EEC, EM, EU, than you very much.
Originally Posted by
florin
Secondly, the euro (I'm talking about the currency) is not an experiment. It was not meant to be a trial just to see if it "works".
Did you think that even George the III thought that the Colonies would be a failed experiment? Did Queen Victoria, or even George VI think that their empire was an experiment?
Originally Posted by
florin
You think that some countries (you mention Greece, Portugal and Spain) have been harmed by the introduction of the euro.
I did not say they were harmed by introduction of Euro but that the policies they pursued after introduction of the EURO. When common currency was introduced, they (the less affluent nations) assumed that they would get rich overnight and pursued polices that were fiscally irresponsible. Increasing Govt spending, without increasing revenue (that comes from GDP) was foolish. You have made another wrong assumption about what I said or meant. EURO gave them access to credit they would never have had. But they should have known how much deficit they could sustain without the growth to match it.
Originally Posted by
florin
I think it is quite a simplistic statement to make and I would ask for some arguments to back it up if you're going to say that. (No offense.)
Asking me to backup what I did not say does not make sense, does it? Having said that, it can be argued that EURO hurt them. Different currencies are a barrier to a capital flow. With the introduction of EURO money could flow freely across borders. Capital inflows, infusion of money led to inflation, which led to more Govt spending. Now, because of Euro, they do not have one tool often used by countries to get out of debt problem. Devaluation of currency. So EURO has not hurt them, but will now.
[QUOTE=florin;16399627]I've heard Germans complain about the introduction of the euro as well. Let's not oversimplify things.[/QUOTE
Tell that to the Germans. Achtung
Originally Posted by
florin
What I think you may have is an anecdotal impression that the general population is worse off. I think you are right about that and that generally, people are worse off while corporations are doing better, but then again the euro was never designed to benefit the general population. Furthermore, EU (and the common currency) came into existence as an economic alliance to facilitate corporations functioning more efficiently; it was never meant to be a federation or to benefit the common folk. Be that as it may, it's still not just an experiment. Yes, there are problems but everybody is motivated to get them fixed. (Common currency, a central bank, yet no common fiscal policy was a recipe for disaster if you ask me... it just doesn't make sense. The move towards a tighter common fiscal policy does fix the issue though.)
I agree with the highlighted part. As to the rest of the claim, why would people support the common currency, if their leaders did not tell them that it would benefit them? Common currency does bring great benefits, but it brought responsibility too, the part which SPIG forgot. By the time it's all over, we don't know if we will have dealt with SPIG, ISPIG, BISPIG or BUKSPIG.
Originally Posted by
florin
Thirdly, when talking about people being smuggled via Greece - I don't think it's necessarily easier to get into Greece because of the financial problems Greece has been facing lately. Yes, I think that generally poorer countries do tend to be more corrupt and consequently more illegal stuff goes on (including smuggling people across the border), but let's also consider that Greece is an archipelago and it's definitely harder to control those borders than a land-locked country surrounded by other well-off countries.
You are parsing different posts and to establish causality that was not evident anywhere in this thread, nor was it in my mind. Just because some one makes different statements it does no it mean they are related. Temperature set record highs last week. Delta lost my luggage. Wiener sent a picture of his crotch from his twitter account. DO you get my point?
This is yet another example of you attributing to me something I never said or claimed. Greece has been lax in border controls. Economic unrest is growing. Some EU Countries are demanding better border controls. These are facts. You are making connections tha I did not make.
Originally Posted by
florin
Lastly, the influx of people illegally crossing EU borders are from Northern African countries and are due to various instabilities there. IMO it is not related to the euro as a currency or to financial problems in Greece.
Again I never said that influx of people crossing into EU illegally is due to Euro. This is the 4th example of an inference you7 have made but I did not. It's amazing how many causal relations you have attributed to me that were never claimed by me.