Guy thanks for that - i may be looking in the wrong place but cant even find good value C class fares if i look at changing in TPE or elsewhere - yes they are a bit cheaper (maybe 2.5k sterling vs 3.5k sterling in C and a couple of hundred pounds each for the y class fares) but with all the hassle (we are traveling with 3 young children) and what i imagine is less comfort (cheapest options were Air China, China Airlines and China Eastern Airlines) and a journey that ends up being a lot longer......i figured for the price differential then made sense to stick with the direct options. Carriers like Eva are currently almost the same price as AC and CX which seems odd to me - it is a peak time though as we're looking at over Xmas. I'm not sure whether cheaper fares might open up if i wait longer...but nervous about ending up with nothing as our accommodation in Canada is already booked and unchangeable......