Originally Posted by
planemechanic
There is no such thing as "undertipping". When I go to the auto store for parts and the guy spends 30 minutes helping me get the right parts, suggesting alternatives at a cheaper price and then offering instructions to help the repair go smoother should I tip them as well? Do I tip the flight attendant who is there "primarily for my safety" when what I want most is a helpful person who can bring me food and water when asked? What about my dentist, who gets to know me far better than any waitress will ever know me, should I tip them too? What about the pharmacist who finds out all sorts of details that I would probably not share with a stranger in normal situations, should I tip them too? Do I want good service from all of them? Of course, and you would probably agree that they shouldn't be tipped. What are your reasons for not tipping them? Mine, they get paid to do the job that they are employed to do, and I should be able to expect that service from them when I engage their services through their employer. And they also make a good wage doing it.
And thats the point, no one should have to rely on a system of bribery to do their daily job. They should be paid a livable wage.
Tipping isn't bribery. The server doesn't start the meal with "You will tip me 15% or I will make sure that you have an unpleasant dining experience."
The statement that they should be paid a livable wage is your opinion and irrelevant. The
FACT is that they are not, and your philosophy directly takes money from them.
Originally Posted by
planemechanic
Yes, I would. If I accepted a job where I was not getting paid and relied and bribery to perform to acceptable standards. It would be my choice to accept that job, those conditions and those possible results. I don't find those outcomes acceptable, so I make the mature adult decision to not seek work at those employers. Every single wait person in American can make the same decision. Or they can live in a state like California where there is no $2.13 wage for wait staff, they are subject to the minimum wage, which in CA is also higher than the Federal minimum wage. Don't like working for minimum wages? Go get a better job.
There is that bribery word again. I have a feeling that you like using that word because it helps you justify not tipping people that rely completely on your generosity for their well being.
Every person in America could not just find a different job, because there will always be people that want to go out and eat and want to be served.
I can't believe that you are comparing the situation of one state to the other 49 then suggesting everyone to move there. Not very logical or practical.
I don't know if you have noticed this or not Plane, but most people aren't career servers. Waiting tables is a job that most people do while they are going to school and/or trying to get experience to get a better job in the career that are pursuing. The statement of "Go get a better job" is not only insensitive, but often impractical. Most people don't walk out of high school with the ability or connections to go out and get the great jobs. Heck some people with the job market the way it is can't even find a good job with their college diploma. But lets make them all suffer because after all they should all just get better jobs or move to California.
Or better yet maybe all waitstaff should just quit and live on welfare, at least then they would be guaranteed a livable wage.
Originally Posted by
planemechanic
If the menu says $10 for a burger and fries I expect the bill to come saying I owe $10. You are asking me to pay $11.50 for a burger that is cold and comes late with the pickle that I asked not to be there. Even if the burger comes and is EXACTLY how I like it and I would eat there again, the price of the burger and fries is $10, nothing more. If there burger is perfect and I become a repeat customer then that is good for the business and the worker, because without customers there is no business nor any workers.
If you do not tip then your business while perhaps good for the company, is not good for any workers that are unfortunate enough to have to serve you.
Originally Posted by
planemechanic
Pure speculation on your part.
Ok, planemechanic you got me, payroll is going to go up by thousands of dollars each month. Where is that additional money going to come from? You say you are from America, what do most business do 99% of the time when the occur extra expenses?
Originally Posted by
planemechanic
Bad comparison. If I go over to someones house it is because I have a personal relationship with them, and if I fail to heed their wishes in this matter I will either never be invited back or I will no longer be considered a friend.
If I order food in a restaurant it is because I am entering a business transaction, and I am the customer. It is entirely possible for the business to ban tipping and pay their workers well, and if they do I am more likely to do business with them to encourage that behavior, but what I really want is the food I order to arrive in a reasonable amount of time and to be what I ordered.
The job of a server is to estabilsh a personal connection with the customer. Otherwise why would we tell you our name? We are here to make sure that not only do we make sure you get what you ordered in a reasonable amount of time and it to be correct, but to take care of any other reasonable requests you may have. If you don't want service why not just order things to go and take it home. If you do want service then you obviously know that it is polite and customary to tip if the service was acceptable.
Originally Posted by
planemechanic
Customs can and do change. 30 years ago a 10% tip was considered normal and acceptable, now you are advocating for 20% or more. It can go the other way. You are assuming tipping is the norm, but you probably have no facts on just how many people in America actually participate. Your anger and rude comments don't help your case.
30 years ago a gallon of gas was a quarter. Sure it can go back to a quarter but it is very unlikely. 15-18% is considered standard at most places where the service was to your liking. That is to handle cost of living. No one likes inflation anymore than they like tipping.
Of course I have no facts on how many people don't participate in tipping, just like you have no facts on how many do. I can say from personal experience I was only stiffed rarely. That seemed to be the case for many other servers. So from what I have seen most people tip some amount and the ones that don't tip at all are a rarity.
You know plane, I got in on this thread to help and to try and give insider advice from my time as a waiter. I no longer wait tables, it was a job to help pay for my bills while I was in college getting my masters. I now have that "better job" it only took five years of hard work and study, plus some internships.
I am grateful that I had a job like waiting tables that allowed me the flexibility to be able to work and take care of my other responsibilities. I am equally grateful that the vast majority of my customers over the 5 years I worked in the business did not have the attitude and beliefs of Plane and others who don't believe in tipping. I would surely be much worse off today than I am now if that were the case.
The more I think about it the more I realize how futile my place in this tread is. I am never going to change the fact that you Plane, think tipping is bribery.
I apologize if I came across rude or angry, but when I see people who have beliefs that hurt people it does make me angry. For example, TSA has the belief that they need to see children naked, or to harass honest people with disabilities to make airplanes safer and that makes me angry.
Since this will be my last post in this thread I do want to leave one parting "food for thought" comment. I make this statement not to scare anyone into any type of behavior but just to give some final insight into this thread.
I do want people to understand that restaurants are responsible for handling the food that you are about to eat.
If you are a frequent customer to a place you probably have some type of reputation with the staff. There were some groups that came in often that were excellent tippers and every server wanted them and always gave their best and went above and beyond for them. There were some groups that were notoriously poor tippers (if at all) and no one wanted them and they usually would receive just average service if that.
The vast majority of the people I worked with wouldn't do anything to a patrons food but I did know of a few that would/did. I liked my job too much to do that, but there were others who were willing to take the risk of being fired to get back at a rude customer or someone that had stiffed them too many times.