I tip my hat to the FF program designers, as they continue to benefit from the many participants' lack of understanding of basic economics. This thread, like most valuation discussions, makes almost no mention of factors impacting many users, such as:

1. Time Value of Money-Points I earn now will not be used for 4-5 years. Whatever your view of cash returns down the road, it isn't zero.

2. Availability-Less of a problem with some hotel programs, but if you think this can be avoided by booking ahead, spend some time reading the Delta boards.

3. Program Downgrades-I imagine there is some program that has lower redemption rates than it did 4 or 5 years ago, but none come to mind.

Each of the above factors should cause most users to discount the value of program miles by a big percentage. Yet they are rarely mentioned in these discussions, which I guess is to be expected since this is a site devoted to FF programs. This is not to say cash is always better than miles/points. It is just noting that factors like this apply to many users, yet they're often not taken into account. Just because something is hard to value doesn't mean it has no value.

One other note-the comment that 2% cash back can't be obtained (now that new aps for Schwab are not being accepted) ignores the ways other cards can be used to get various cash rebates for certain purchases.