Originally Posted by
Superguy
So pretty much, you're semantically denying the charge because someone won't provide ID, which is a violation of the merchant agreement. By the "because I can" excuse, you can make up any excuse, real or imagined, not to sell to someone.
Sounds like you want the benefits of taking Visa without actually having to live up to the merchant agreement.
Cost of doing business. If you're that worried about being screwed, go cash only. Trust is a two way street in a transaction. I'm putting as much trust in you not selling me a garbage item or service as you are for getting paid. You're also asking me to trust you with my identity. I don't know how good of a memory you have.
You're also asking me to give my rights to privacy in order to business with you and placing a condition on the terms of the sale that Visa says you're not permitted to. Only calling it something else.
So if you can't keep your word as a merchant, how could I trust you with the goods and services you provide? It's clear to me if there's an issue, you're going to try to weasel out of a warranty or policyon a technicality. Maybe you're an honest businessman. However, based on what I've seen you say, I couldn't trust you as a consumer.
In other words, when it suits your purpose.
How do you know that the debit card's not stolen and they know the PIN?
In all honesty, you should both get nailed. The schmuck for trying to defraud, and you for admitting to Visa you violated the agreement.
These both go together. The other comment didn't fit in there.
Do you see the irony? You're taking the exact same attitude TSA is. If they don't like how I [sell/perform security], they can kiss my behind. There are other [vendors/modes of transportation]. I'm only doing what I can to protect [my business/national security].
I had a lot of respect for you TK. I really did. This post just seems hypocritical - you flip sides when it suits your purposes.
If you lose enough business, will you reconsider?
Not intended as a personal attack. I just don't see how you can claim to be a trollkiller taking down TSA while doing the exact same things to save $160. As bad as they are at doing it, law be damned, TSA at least has a more altruistic goal as their motivation.
I really hope you think about that.
Super
Ouch. Ok first me asking for your ID does not violate the merchant agreement. The only thing that may violate it is my refusing to sell after I have requested your ID.
The thing is I am not refusing the sale because you won't produce your ID, I am refusing the sale because most people that will not show their ID will show their a$$. Semantics I know.
Most people that refuse to show ID are not you, they refuse to show ID because they either plan to deny they bought that item or they have a stolen CC. Those are the facts, sad as they are.
When I ask for ID and a person asks "why?" I simply explain that I want to make sure they are the person the card is made out to because I know I would not want someone using my credit card. 90% or better say "oh ok" and the other 10% show their backside or were questionable to begin with.
Secondly as a business owner I do not need articulatable reason or suspicion to refuse a sale. If I feel that the transaction will cost me money I don't do it. I am in the business to make money so if I refuse a sale it is because the risk of loss is high.
The agreement I have with the CC company is just that, an agreement with them. Sorry but you are not in that agreement. If the CC company feels that my behavior is violating the agreement, they can drop me. If you feel they need to be told about my behavior feel free to report me. Until the CC company says I am violating our agreement I am not.
$160 may not seem too much but mom and pops do not bring in a whole lot per day. A couple of fraudulent charges and you have lost a days worth of income. If the CC company was willing to take the hit instead of rolling it over to me, I would not bother to check any ID.
If you can't trust me please visit my competition. If you don't want to show your ID for a CC sale, please visit my competition. That is not being flip. I want happy customers, if I can't please you by making sure the CC in front of me belongs to the person holding it, I won't be able to please you on anything else.
On the debit card, the bank takes the hit if there is a bad charge, not the business. If the CC company took the hit it would be a different story.
I can see the parallels between my attitude on CC acceptance and the TSA ID check. But there are some large differences.
The TSA violates the
law when it uses an ID check as a criterion for granting access to the sterile area. You say I am violating and AGREEMENT between me and the CC company when I check ID as a criterion to accepting a CC.
I have showed you that asking for ID is not violating the agreement. My not selling to you after a refusal of the ID check MAY or MAY NOT violate the agreement but that is something that is determined by the CC company. So far no problems from the CC company. (And yes we have had discussions with them on this very issue)
Go back and re-read what I wrote, I said that I could tell a business to kiss my behind if I did not like how they did things. I was assuming the role of customer there. Like you pointed out the TSA says you can kiss their behinds if you don't like the way they run things.
My refusing a sale does NOT block you from buying the products I sell elsewhere. If the TSA blocks you, that is it you are stuck. You can not go to the next airline to buy a ticket. You can always go to the next store that sells my products. Heck I will even give directions.
If you refuse to allow me to verify your ID there is another way you can complete the sale, pay cash. If you refuse to let the TSA verify your ID there is no other way to complete the transaction.
Go back over all my many posts about the forced ID verification and you will see that my main problem is not the TSA asking for ID, it is the fact there is no other way for me to get to the plane except by that forced verification and that violates the law.
One more thing that is different. I am not the Government, I do not have the weight of law forcing you to buy my product or to show your ID. I am a PRIVATE company dealing with a PRIVATE person. We are making a PRIVATE agreement. If the terms are not to your liking you can negotiate.
BTW the reason a business takes a CC is for the customer's convenience. We would rather be paid in cash, that way we don't lose the transaction fee or the percentage of sale. And to answer your question, if I lost enough business by demanding IDs my business model would change. As it is losing a couple of honest people a year is better than losing thousands a year in fraudulent charges. (BTW that can also get your merchant account dropped)
It may seem hypocritical but I firmly believe that private parties have more latitude than the Government on a lot of things. An employer may want to search your bags before you leave work. If you agree to that arrangement that is between you and the employer. IF a Government agency tried the same thing I would call foul.
It all comes down to what you and the other private party can agree too.