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Denied compensation for controllable delay

Denied compensation for controllable delay

Old Aug 5, 2022, 6:53 pm
  #1  
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Denied compensation for controllable delay

I was booked YLW-YYC-LGW a month ago. The YLW-YYC flight was delayed, causing us to miss our connection. At the time, I checked the flight status on ExpertFlyer, and the reason listed there is "UPLINE DLY OPNL CONTROLLABLE IN YYC". I have a screenshot of that.

They rebooked us (and several others making the same connection) on the flight to LHR the following day, arriving 25 hours later. (We were rebooked before we landed without consultation; my family and I actually sprinted across the airport to the LGW gate, and the plane hadn't left, but they had closed the flight and would not let us board. We had no checked bags.)

Because we were scheduled to take a train to Edinburgh 25 hours after our originally-scheduled landing in London, we managed to get rebooked YYC-YYZ-EDI the following day, but still arrived about 22 hours after our originally-scheduled arrival in London.

I applied for compensation from WestJet, expecting $1000 per passenger because of the controllable delay. The answer just came back:
Upon review of your reservation, we are unable to approve your claim for compensation as the most significant reason for your flight disruption was due to a delay after departure that was outside of WestJets control.

I assume that is incorrect? I can no longer check the flight status on ExpertFlyer; it won't let me go far enough back in time. Is there any way to appeal? Is it possible that they're right despite the coding on ExpertFlyer?
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Old Aug 6, 2022, 12:58 pm
  #2  
 
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You have two options:

1) File a complaint with the CTA.

2) Sue them in small claims.

Delays for cancellations get re-assessed all the time, but with the lack of transparency mandated by the APPR, it's anyone's guess. Only way to find out is to do either of the above.
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Old Aug 6, 2022, 1:50 pm
  #3  
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Originally Posted by Denguin
You have two options:

1) File a complaint with the CTA.

2) Sue them in small claims.

Delays for cancellations get re-assessed all the time, but with the lack of transparency mandated by the APPR, it's anyone's guess. Only way to find out is to do either of the above.
Really? So no way to appeal directly with WestJet? Guess I'll go the CTA route. With four of us, it's a decent amount of cash, but not a lawyer's worth!
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Old Aug 6, 2022, 2:34 pm
  #4  
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I guess my real question is is there a way besides an ExpertFlyer screenshot from the day of travel to find the final coding of the reason for the delay WestJet used? Is it possible the coding has changed since a few hours after the flight, when I last checked? ExpertFlyer (at least with a basic subscription) only lets me search flight status back one week.
@ExpertFlyer Voice
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Old Aug 6, 2022, 2:51 pm
  #5  
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Originally Posted by ashill
I guess my real question is is there a way besides an ExpertFlyer screenshot from the day of travel to find the final coding of the reason for the delay WestJet used? Is it possible the coding has changed since a few hours after the flight, when I last checked? ExpertFlyer (at least with a basic subscription) only lets me search flight status back one week.
@ExpertFlyer Voice
The detailed flight status data only exists in the reservation system for a few days after the flight unfortunately.
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Old Aug 6, 2022, 8:30 pm
  #6  
 
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Originally Posted by ashill
Really? So no way to appeal directly with WestJet? Guess I'll go the CTA route. With four of us, it's a decent amount of cash, but not a lawyer's worth!
You really want to wait another 30-60 days to hear a reply re-iterating the same thing? They won't pull a 180 just because you have a screenshot from ExpertFlyer. In all likelihood, they'll just tell you that "we reclassified the delay".

These airlines do not care enough to send someone investigating into the true cause of the delay amidst what is likely tens of thousands of claims that are currently ongoing. The agent simply looks up the flight number, and either reads off the reason if it is non-compensable, or seemingly makes one up majority of the time with no explanation. With all the lying and deceit that is seemingly going on with APPR rules, there is no doubt in my mind that this is an order from the top to deter people away from claiming rightful compensation to decrease liabilities, or just a ploy to effectively buy extra credit without interest. They don't get any penalties for doing so, so I don't blame them.

IMO, it's much better to invoke a third party who will ask them to substantiate their claim and demand transparency from the get-go. You are clearly suspicious of their explanation. While the CTA has questionable partiality, I have had nothing but success with them so far. You also live in BC, so the BC CRT does not require a lawyer to be involved, and you get reimbursed your filing fee if you settle and/or win.
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Last edited by Denguin; Aug 7, 2022 at 1:44 am
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Old Aug 7, 2022, 12:31 pm
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Westjet uses Sabre Movement Control as the operations software. What happens is when the initial delay get's posted for say one hour as a controllable delay it will carry over until another delay gets posted. So people may see at first the aircraft is delayed due to mechanical reasons then randomly it's crew preparation time for the entire delay duration when it should only be like 5 minutes worth. It just overwrites in the system. The idea is that the operations person who adds the delay should go in and comment the Shift Log on the flight and justify it so the WJ APPR agent can accurately judge who gets compensation and who doesn't. But no one really does that.

Might be the case here or it might not, but the whole recoding stuff is a bunch of garbage hence why I always recommend going further..
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Old Aug 7, 2022, 1:21 pm
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In this case, there was never really an announcement or acknowledgement that the flight was even delayed. The departure time was posted as 30 minutes or so after the scheduled departure, then rolling delays, and they started boarding when the plane (Q400) arrived and was ready. Never an apology or anything like that. We left 1:15 late and arrived 1:45 late, so it seems plausible that 1:15 was WestJet's fault and then the additional 30 minutes was air traffic control. (Really, I suspect the problem was simply that WestJet scheduled more flights than they had staffing to operate close to on time; I'm sure they find some way to claim that's not their fault.) When we landed, they announced that passengers on a few connecting flights, including our London (UK) flight, had been rebooked for the next day; that was the only suggestion that anything was late. No reason given at any point that I recall.

Definitely will go farther based on the feedback here.
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Old Aug 23, 2022, 6:20 pm
  #9  
 
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WestJet launches legal battle to overturn order to compensate passenger $1,000

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/wes...tion-1.6559146

WestJet has launched a legal battle, seeking to appeal a Canadian Transportation Agency (CTA) ruling that ordered the airline to compensate a passenger $1,000 for a flight disruption caused by a crew shortage.

When issuing its ruling in July, the CTA clarified that, in general, airlines can't deny passengers compensation for flight disruptions caused by staffing shortages.

In a motion filed in the Federal Court of Appeal on Aug. 10, WestJet argues that the CTA's ruling was flawed, because it was based on a misinterpretation of Canada's Air Passenger Protection Regulations (APPR). The court has yet to decide if WestJet can proceed with its appeal.
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Old Jan 5, 2023, 8:06 pm
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Can anyone please explain what the code means:

*WESTJET ENCORE
YYC 600P MA C58
YEG MA 49H 700P
5YYC/UPLINE DLY GST CARE UNCONTROLLABLE IN YYC *1628*HDQOCA
3YYC/ETD 1905 WS *1957*HDQHTN
4YYC/OUT 1918 OFF 1933 *2033*HDQHTN
2YEG/ON 2009 IN 2017 *2118*HDQHTN
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Old Jan 5, 2023, 8:22 pm
  #11  
 
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westjet encore airline
departure airport, scheduled departure, MA? , departure gate
arrival airport, MA?? arrival gate , scheduled arrival time

? YYC/ Upline Delay Guest Care Uncontrollable in YYC at 16:28 * HDQOCA????
3/ YYC/Estimated time of departure 19:05 Westjet estimated arrival at 19:57 *WS *1957*HDQHTN?
4 YYC/ Out of gate at 19:18 and off runway at 19:33 estimated arrival at 20:33 *HDQHTN?
2 YEG/ On runway at 20:09 in gate at 20:17 estimated arrival to next destination? *2118*HDQHTN


How did I do? What are the numbers preceding the airport code? Are the numbers inside the ** time record was entered? The characters at the end I'm assuming are either an Ident of the aircraft or a code for an event


Do the words UNCONTROLLABLE entered at 4:48 make the 7:33 pm entries all uncontrollable also? Is this an uncontrolled delay?
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Old Jan 5, 2023, 9:51 pm
  #12  
 
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Originally Posted by tessy143
Can anyone please explain what the code means:

*WESTJET ENCORE
YYC 600P MA C58
YEG MA 49H 700P
5YYC/UPLINE DLY GST CARE UNCONTROLLABLE IN YYC *1628*HDQOCA
3YYC/ETD 1905 WS *1957*HDQHTN
4YYC/OUT 1918 OFF 1933 *2033*HDQHTN
2YEG/ON 2009 IN 2017 *2118*HDQHTN
Essentially, your flight was delayed due a previous flight having an uncontrollable delay for "guest care". That may mean a guest had a medical emergency on board, for example.

Looks like the delay in itself wouldn't even have qualified for compensation or expenses anyway, unless you ended up mis-connecting as a result.

Do the words UNCONTROLLABLE entered at 4:48 make the 7:33 pm entries all uncontrollable also? Is this an uncontrolled delay?
The proceeding lines are just tracking the plane's movements and the times they occurred.

Last edited by Denguin; Jan 5, 2023 at 9:57 pm
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Old Jan 6, 2023, 11:06 am
  #13  
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Originally Posted by djoseph
Westjet uses Sabre Movement Control as the operations software. What happens is when the initial delay get's posted for say one hour as a controllable delay it will carry over until another delay gets posted. So people may see at first the aircraft is delayed due to mechanical reasons then randomly it's crew preparation time for the entire delay duration when it should only be like 5 minutes worth. It just overwrites in the system. The idea is that the operations person who adds the delay should go in and comment the Shift Log on the flight and justify it so the WJ APPR agent can accurately judge who gets compensation and who doesn't. But no one really does that.

Might be the case here or it might not, but the whole recoding stuff is a bunch of garbage hence why I always recommend going further..
For the record, I got around to filing my complaint with the CTA about a 23 hour delay that was initially coded as controllable but then they denied me compensation in December. The CTA's auto response says their current wait time until my case is reviewed is more than 18 months!
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Old Jan 6, 2023, 6:45 pm
  #14  
 
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Originally Posted by ashill
For the record, I got around to filing my complaint with the CTA about a 23 hour delay that was initially coded as controllable but then they denied me compensation in December. The CTA's auto response says their current wait time until my case is reviewed is more than 18 months!
Yep. The recent weather caused a massive spike in their case load. From what I could tell they had gotten about 2000 complaints in the week over Christmas alone.

I put one in a week ago (against TS and unrelated to weather) and I've moved up about 200 spots in that time.

Just a heads up that 18 months was also noted when they indicated they had received 30,000 complaints, and is still indicated when they're now at 33,000. I'd take any timeframe estimate provided with a grain of salt.
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Old Jan 6, 2023, 7:13 pm
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Originally Posted by Speedbird84
Yep. The recent weather caused a massive spike in their case load. From what I could tell they had gotten about 2000 complaints in the week over Christmas alone.

I put one in a week ago (against TS and unrelated to weather) and I've moved up about 200 spots in that time.

Just a heads up that 18 months was also noted when they indicated they had received 30,000 complaints, and is still indicated when they're now at 33,000. I'd take any timeframe estimate provided with a grain of salt.
To put the numbers in context, though, in 2019 there were 163 million passengers enplaned/deplaned in 2019 (81.5 million passengers flown), 2022 is likely to be about 80% of that value, so number of complaints is from about 0.05% of passengers flown, assuming most of the current complaint backlog was accumulated in 2022.
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