WestJet strategy shift [was B787 Order Cancellation]
Jun 17, 2022, 8:43 am
#46
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The World
Programs: WS Platinum, Marriott Titanium, DL Gold, UA Silver
Posts: 1,478
No, they’ve always been a leisure carrier focused on leisure customers. They were starting to target business traffic in the years before Onex and COVID. There was finally a premium product, but connectivity with partners was terrible, the hokey attitude still showed up plenty of times, priority boarding was a joke (I regularly watched over half the plane get on during the pre-boarding for families with small children and elderly passengers, when anyone with a kid under 18 or a speck of grey hair felt entitled to get on before those with “Zone 1” boarding passes, and were allowed to do so by WS staff), and the self-serve options on the app and website made it easy to see why AC felt its mediocre efforts in those areas – as compared to the US3 – were sufficient.
Unless WS offered me a non-stop vs a connection on another carrier, I never chose them for business travel. YYC-LAX or YYC-NYC, sure, sometimes the WS flights worked better than AC. But YYC-BOS? Nope, AC had much better frequency, better potential IRROPS handling, etc. YYC-LatAm? Yeah, I actually wanted to try YYC-ATL-BOG/etc on WS/DL, but for a very long time after WS launched that flight, I couldn’t buy it all in the front cabin – buy from WS, sit in the back on the DL legs. Buy from DL, sit in the back on WS. They finally figured it out, but it took maybe two years for that? Meantime, I kept flying AC/UA via IAH, AA via DFW, etc.
Flying on business, I often valued same-day changes and standby to cut down my travel time. WS touted offering SDC up to 24 hours from the flight. But only at the airport. Only online if you were less than 5 hours out from your original flight. But also more than 2 hours out from the flight you wanted to change. So, the number of routes that had flights within that window was very small. And multiple WS stations told me there was no such thing as standby (not outstations in foreign countries, domestic Canadian airports with a fair amount of service). US airlines, do that kind of stuff in the app. AC for a long time only allowed you to do it at the airport unless you had concierge access, but eventually added a lot of that to the app.
They were making some progress, but doing it very slowly.
Unless WS offered me a non-stop vs a connection on another carrier, I never chose them for business travel. YYC-LAX or YYC-NYC, sure, sometimes the WS flights worked better than AC. But YYC-BOS? Nope, AC had much better frequency, better potential IRROPS handling, etc. YYC-LatAm? Yeah, I actually wanted to try YYC-ATL-BOG/etc on WS/DL, but for a very long time after WS launched that flight, I couldn’t buy it all in the front cabin – buy from WS, sit in the back on the DL legs. Buy from DL, sit in the back on WS. They finally figured it out, but it took maybe two years for that? Meantime, I kept flying AC/UA via IAH, AA via DFW, etc.
Flying on business, I often valued same-day changes and standby to cut down my travel time. WS touted offering SDC up to 24 hours from the flight. But only at the airport. Only online if you were less than 5 hours out from your original flight. But also more than 2 hours out from the flight you wanted to change. So, the number of routes that had flights within that window was very small. And multiple WS stations told me there was no such thing as standby (not outstations in foreign countries, domestic Canadian airports with a fair amount of service). US airlines, do that kind of stuff in the app. AC for a long time only allowed you to do it at the airport unless you had concierge access, but eventually added a lot of that to the app.
They were making some progress, but doing it very slowly.
It feels like a course reversal. They were a leisure carrier trying hard to become a mainstream airline. Now, the direction is to stay a leisure carrier ... and retreat to being little more than a leisure carrier, a la Transat or Eurowings.
I guess the reason that I find this so sad and so frustrating is that I really liked what they were trying to become back in 2019.
As a YYC-based flier, having a hometown airline with lots of non-stops to leisure and business destinations ... and with a strong cross-border partnership ... and with a greatly improved premium product ... it's all exactly what I wanted (and still want). And it was more than just talk at that point -- they had really made great strides. The 787, at least from a customer perspective, was great. The J service offering, amazing. PY on both the 737 and 787 had become a great product ... they had substantially improved it, really upping their game.
Before, I'll admit, they were still just a leisure airline ... but making great strides to appeal to travellers like me. Now, the focus (per Alexis von Hoensbroech) is clearly to double down on "leisure and sun". And while he hints at keeping a premium product, there's clearly no intent to build it out or to put any kind of focus on it or to do anything more to serve/attract business travel.
And, as mentioned, not mentioning Delta and the JV at all in a WestJet strategic plan speaks volumes. DL was to play a massive role in making WestJet appeal to Canadian business travellers, and was to help feed U.S. fliers into WestJet's network. That would seem to have no place in a carrier where the new CEO just repeats "leisure and sun for Western Canadians" over and over in his strategic plan. The strategy is all about getting people from Saskatoon to Cancun or from Edmonton to Cabo for their annual vacation -- not about getting me to Atlanta or Dallas or DC for my two trips a month.
Jun 17, 2022, 8:54 am
#47
Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: YYC
Programs: AC SE MM, FB Plat, WS Plat, BA Silver, DL GM, Marriott Plat, Hilton Gold, Accor Silver
Posts: 16,765
I guess that's probably true of me too. Other than one time in university doing YUL-YYZ-YYC, I can't think of ever connecting on WS.
Who told you that? It's definitely wrong. That's how it worked before COVID. They now have domestic flights arriving and departing the D gates all through the day, and the passageway to C is always open in both directions, whether there are international flights leaving or not. I've arrived on a domestic flight, walked past the AC flight to FRA or LHR as it was boarding, and walked out through the C area. I've written extensively about the (even bigger) catastrophe that is YYC since COVID in a thread in the Canada forum.
Also, many days, there really is no substantial time when the international flights aren't using the concourse. The KL flight leaves at 15:30. Over the next few hours, the other TATLs. In the morning, WS usually has a bunch of sun stuff. So there are maybe a couple of hours right around midday and a couple hours late at night with no international departures. But just take a look at the YYC departure board this morning. WS2310 is going to CUN at 9:30 from D79. WS268 to YWG is going from next door at D78 at 9:35. KL678 to AMS at 15:20, D76. WS119 to YVR at 15:30, D80
Anyway, not to belabour the point, but sterile ITI transit definitely does not exist anymore at YYC.
Yes, I agree they were moving in the right direction. I was really hoping they'd continue to deepen the DL partnership, join SkyTeam, and keep adding 787s (ideally with a bigger J cabin) so I could have a second option to AC/*A for a lot of my travel, both personal and work-related.
Agree completely. Let alone getting me to South America or somewhere in Europe they don't fly non-stop.
See, I thought that too. But apparently it's functionally sterile - when international flights are using the concourse you can enter from the domestic concourses but to exit, you need to clear customs.
Also, many days, there really is no substantial time when the international flights aren't using the concourse. The KL flight leaves at 15:30. Over the next few hours, the other TATLs. In the morning, WS usually has a bunch of sun stuff. So there are maybe a couple of hours right around midday and a couple hours late at night with no international departures. But just take a look at the YYC departure board this morning. WS2310 is going to CUN at 9:30 from D79. WS268 to YWG is going from next door at D78 at 9:35. KL678 to AMS at 15:20, D76. WS119 to YVR at 15:30, D80
Anyway, not to belabour the point, but sterile ITI transit definitely does not exist anymore at YYC.
It feels like a course reversal. They were a leisure carrier trying hard to become a mainstream airline. Now, the direction is to stay a leisure carrier ... and retreat to being little more than a leisure carrier, a la Transat or Eurowings.
I guess the reason that I find this so sad and so frustrating is that I really liked what they were trying to become back in 2019.
As a YYC-based flier, having a hometown airline with lots of non-stops to leisure and business destinations ... and with a strong cross-border partnership ... and with a greatly improved premium product ... it's all exactly what I wanted (and still want). And it was more than just talk at that point -- they had really made great strides. The 787, at least from a customer perspective, was great. The J service offering, amazing. PY on both the 737 and 787 had become a great product ... they had substantially improved it, really upping their game.
I guess the reason that I find this so sad and so frustrating is that I really liked what they were trying to become back in 2019.
As a YYC-based flier, having a hometown airline with lots of non-stops to leisure and business destinations ... and with a strong cross-border partnership ... and with a greatly improved premium product ... it's all exactly what I wanted (and still want). And it was more than just talk at that point -- they had really made great strides. The 787, at least from a customer perspective, was great. The J service offering, amazing. PY on both the 737 and 787 had become a great product ... they had substantially improved it, really upping their game.
The strategy is all about getting people from Saskatoon to Cancun or from Edmonton to Cabo for their annual vacation -- not about getting me to Atlanta or Dallas or DC for my two trips a month.
Last edited by Adam Smith; Jun 17, 2022 at 9:09 am Reason: Respond to additional post
Jun 17, 2022, 9:15 am
#48
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: YVR
Programs: WS Nothing, AC Something, AS Gold. Too big for 737Max washrooms
Posts: 893
And I've never understood your fascination and dream with this route on WS. If I were based in YVR or YUL and needed to fly to the other, there's no comparison. 737 NGs or widebody with lie flat J seats? This isn't even a competition and never was. The fact you stuck it out this long still baffles me.
I fly WS because I am YYC-based and it's very convenient. But I don't fly to YYZ on WS for the same reasons (yes, there's a daily 789 but J is not accessible with points). And I'm a WS plebe and 35k for AP.
I fly WS because I am YYC-based and it's very convenient. But I don't fly to YYZ on WS for the same reasons (yes, there's a daily 789 but J is not accessible with points). And I'm a WS plebe and 35k for AP.
Jun 17, 2022, 9:33 am
#49
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: YYC, Canada
Programs: AC 35k
Posts: 1,898
All very true but "I've never understood" is not the same thing as "fascination and dream". I realize YUL is not on the WS list of places people might want go to so on the occasions that I need to go YVR-YUL and it's not the fifth Wednesday in the first month after summer solstice (when WS choose to fly) I use AC, so be baffled no longer.
It's like eating mud when there's cake on the table. You can pretend it's cake, but it's not.
[Moderator edit]: [J]ust fly AC all the time on this route. You'll feel so much better.
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Jun 17, 2022 at 1:21 pm Reason: To avoid unduly personalized comment per FT Rule 12.
Jun 17, 2022, 11:24 am
#50
Moderator, Air Canada; FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: YYC
Programs: AC SE MM, FB Plat, WS Plat, BA Silver, DL GM, Marriott Plat, Hilton Gold, Accor Silver
Posts: 16,765
Another example of lack of attention to detail in attracting business passengers: nowhere to hang a jacket, even in Premium. No closet, no peg at the seat, no hangers back behind the last row. Guess it will just have to sit on my lap all flight.
Jun 17, 2022, 12:16 pm
#51
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Copenhagen
Programs: skyteam
Posts: 575
I'm still baffled. Why do you fly this route on WS ever? At all? Why? There's never a good reason to do this. Not ever.
It's like eating mud when there's cake on the table. You can pretend it's cake, but it's not.
[Conforming moderator edit to quoted post]: [J]ust fly AC all the time on this route. You'll feel so much better.
It's like eating mud when there's cake on the table. You can pretend it's cake, but it's not.
[Conforming moderator edit to quoted post]: [J]ust fly AC all the time on this route. You'll feel so much better.
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Jun 17, 2022 at 1:23 pm Reason: Per FT Rule 12, that we discuss the thread's topic; not members in a personalized way.
Jun 17, 2022, 12:34 pm
#52
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: YYC, Canada
Programs: AC 35k
Posts: 1,898
There are good reasons for this and despite pointing them out, the answer makes sense given their strategy. Most WS fans want WS to be Air Canada, WS edition. YYZ, YUL and YVR hubs. This has never made sense, and will never make sense.
As a YYC-based flier, WestJet is great for direct flights to destinations I normally would need to connect elsewhere to take. The premium product is decent. The 787 product is great. Their loyalty program is terrible. Not hate, balanced opinion.
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Jun 17, 2022 at 1:26 pm Reason: Conforming Moderator edit to quoted post.
Jun 17, 2022, 2:01 pm
#53
Join Date: Apr 2019
Location: Copenhagen
Programs: skyteam
Posts: 575
I don't have disdain for WS, I think they're great for what they are. But Frequentlander laments, over and over, why doesn't WestJet serve YVR-YUL, and others keep lamenting oh why oh why don't they have YUL as a hub?
There are good reasons for this and despite pointing them out, the answer makes sense given their strategy. Most WS fans want WS to be Air Canada, WS edition. YYZ, YUL and YVR hubs. This has never made sense, and will never make sense.
As a YYC-based flier, WestJet is great for direct flights to destinations I normally would need to connect elsewhere to take. The premium product is decent. The 787 product is great. Their loyalty program is terrible. Not hate, balanced opinion.
There are good reasons for this and despite pointing them out, the answer makes sense given their strategy. Most WS fans want WS to be Air Canada, WS edition. YYZ, YUL and YVR hubs. This has never made sense, and will never make sense.
As a YYC-based flier, WestJet is great for direct flights to destinations I normally would need to connect elsewhere to take. The premium product is decent. The 787 product is great. Their loyalty program is terrible. Not hate, balanced opinion.
Jun 17, 2022, 3:34 pm
#54
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: YYC, Canada
Programs: AC 35k
Posts: 1,898
Jun 17, 2022, 6:38 pm
#55
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Canada
Programs: AC E50K (*G), Westjet Gold
Posts: 788
Can't say this is surprising. Not only is AC strong out east, but so is Porter (which, AFAIK is still gearing up to expand out of YYZ)... When you compare those to Westjet, its not hard to see why they're struggling. I do wonder what this means for Westjet's LGA slots though... Wonder if they'll maintain service, or give those up.
In terms of service out west, AC has really been retreating in recent years. Out of YEG for example, we have lost AC service to YWG, YXE, YQR, YQU, YMM, YLW, and YYJ in recent years (plus it looks like YOW is now seasonal). Add in termination of Rouge's LAS flight, AA's DFW, UA's ORD and EWR, DL's MSP and SEA... seems like there's at least potential for Westjet to fill the void.
In terms of service out west, AC has really been retreating in recent years. Out of YEG for example, we have lost AC service to YWG, YXE, YQR, YQU, YMM, YLW, and YYJ in recent years (plus it looks like YOW is now seasonal). Add in termination of Rouge's LAS flight, AA's DFW, UA's ORD and EWR, DL's MSP and SEA... seems like there's at least potential for Westjet to fill the void.
Jun 19, 2022, 3:06 am
#56
Join Date: Jan 2007
Programs: No single airline or hotel chain is of much use to me anymore.
Posts: 3,279
I can't get too worked-up about any of this, retrenchment is logical in the face of the gathering poop-storm.
I would be curious to see if WestJet will now, freed of their insistence on perfectly emulating AC's business class, come up with something better positioned to a market where the people sitting up front are more likely to be spending their own money.
I would be curious to see if WestJet will now, freed of their insistence on perfectly emulating AC's business class, come up with something better positioned to a market where the people sitting up front are more likely to be spending their own money.
Jun 19, 2022, 9:40 pm
#57
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: YYZ/YHM
Programs: Marriott Titanium, Air Canada 50K, United Silver, Accor Platinum, Others on Rotation
Posts: 362
It is a bit unclear to me if the complaints about Air Canada's dominance are coming from WestJet or industry watchers but the rumours are certainly that WestJet is going to focus growth on Western Canada.
Air Canada too dominant in the East for WestJet to compete, experts say (msn.com)
Okay - discuss. Is this wise? Is WestJet retreating from Air Canada or reinforcing its home turf against the likes of Lynx and Flair?
[Moderator edit.]
[Edit: My comments]: Time will tell for Lynx and Flair.
As it relates to WestJet v Air Canada - the major hurdle WestJet still has not overcome is: Aeroplan and Star Alliance.
If WestJet would bother to actually introduce a useful frequent flyer program and join and alliance with better access to international travel they could win over this frequent flyer in a heartbeat particularly now that WestJet is demonstrating they can do better than Air Canada with items like the YYC WestJet Encore Lounge.
Air Canada too dominant in the East for WestJet to compete, experts say (msn.com)
Okay - discuss. Is this wise? Is WestJet retreating from Air Canada or reinforcing its home turf against the likes of Lynx and Flair?
[Moderator edit.]
[Edit: My comments]: Time will tell for Lynx and Flair.
As it relates to WestJet v Air Canada - the major hurdle WestJet still has not overcome is: Aeroplan and Star Alliance.
If WestJet would bother to actually introduce a useful frequent flyer program and join and alliance with better access to international travel they could win over this frequent flyer in a heartbeat particularly now that WestJet is demonstrating they can do better than Air Canada with items like the YYC WestJet Encore Lounge.
Last edited by Ocn Vw 1K; Jun 23, 2022 at 8:52 am Reason: Edited posts to eliminate a few redundancies after combining them.
Jun 19, 2022, 11:26 pm
#58
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The World
Programs: WS Platinum, Marriott Titanium, DL Gold, UA Silver
Posts: 1,478
My bigger frustration is the clear retrenchment back to just being a vacation airline. That’s potentially a massive retrenchment (and possibly a big step down to just being a niche player, and a huge direction change from where they were headed prior to the new CEO). It’s all “leisure, leisure, leisure" now. As another post said earlier, the strategy sounds like they now want to become to Alberta what Transat is to Quebec.
Both of these retrenchments - pulling back to the west, and going down to a holiday airline - also really put the Delta partnership in jeopardy, IMO. Delta needed a mainstream national partner in Canada. They don’t have that now. WestJet wanted a mainstream national U.S. partner to drive business traffic. They won’t need that now. The potential impact on the Delta relationship has me, as a business (and leisure) flyer very concerned.
I really hope they don’t mess with it.
Last edited by FlyerJ; Jun 20, 2022 at 9:59 am
Jun 20, 2022, 11:36 am
#59
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: YYG
Programs: airlines and hotels and rental cars - oh my!
Posts: 2,994
While it's good that Westjet finally seems to have figured out what kind of airline it wants to be, it's unfortunate - for me at least - that they've decided to go back to being a discount holiday airline from Calgary.
It's too bad because with their moves to introduce a more premium experience, wide body aircraft, overseas routes and a possible alliance with Delta, things were looking promising for those of us otherwise stuck with AC. But their new strategy basically assures all of my future spending will default to their competitor. No freaking way I'm flying to Europe via Alberta.
It's too bad because with their moves to introduce a more premium experience, wide body aircraft, overseas routes and a possible alliance with Delta, things were looking promising for those of us otherwise stuck with AC. But their new strategy basically assures all of my future spending will default to their competitor. No freaking way I'm flying to Europe via Alberta.
Jun 20, 2022, 3:31 pm
#60
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 1,444
