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Grounded 737 MAX = opportunity to upgrade to 2x2 premium config?

Grounded 737 MAX = opportunity to upgrade to 2x2 premium config?

Old Apr 26, 19, 10:28 pm
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Grounded 737 MAX = opportunity to upgrade to 2x2 premium config?

So with the 737 MAX grounding, is this their prime opportunity to upgrade to 2x2 premium config? It would be nice all 13 of them that are grounded upgraded to the 2x2 premium configuration so that they get a leap on their plans. They would need to fly the seats in, though.
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Old Apr 27, 19, 12:32 am
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Lead time on aircraft seats can be quite long. Doubtful they're just laying around and can be installed anytime soon.
Even if they did have them available, no need to fly them to the aircraft - ferry flights are permitted.
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Old Apr 27, 19, 5:51 am
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Old Apr 28, 19, 6:46 am
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Originally Posted by cooleddie View Post
So with the 737 MAX grounding, is this their prime opportunity to upgrade to 2x2 premium config? It would be nice all 13 of them that are grounded upgraded to the 2x2 premium configuration so that they get a leap on their plans. They would need to fly the seats in, though.
WS should be upgrading their 737Max's instead. They should be bringing up their safety standards up to AC level on the Max.
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Old Apr 29, 19, 12:58 pm
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Originally Posted by 5mm View Post
WS should be upgrading their 737Max's instead. They should be bringing up their safety standards up to AC level on the Max.
Transport Canada regulates the safety of airlines in Canada. It is not left to each airline to establish a safe benchmark. WestJet adheres to Transport Canada's regulations and requirements Each airline may add different procedures to make their own standard operating practices unique, but end of the day, all airlines in Canada operate at a safe standard.

Last edited by cirrusdragoon; Apr 29, 19 at 3:14 pm
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Old Apr 29, 19, 2:37 pm
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Originally Posted by cirrusdragoon View Post


Transport Canada regulates the safety of airlines in Canada. It is not left to each airline to establish a benchmark. WestJet adheres to Transport Canada's regulations and requirements
???? Transport Canada doesn't set Canadian airlines safety Benchmarks. This is done by each airline themselves. Transport Canada only regulates the bare min safety levels. This is why WS only order 1 additional safety option, where AC took both options. Also, AC is the only North American airline to order 737-max simulators and is currently training their pilots on Boeing software updates. Finally, AC is also the only airline in North America that upgraded their 737-Max cockpits instrument panels, addiing a additional safety level. This was a custom upgrade not offered by Boeing.
These extra's cost AC millions, which WS was not willing to spend. Maybe it is time?
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Old Apr 29, 19, 3:15 pm
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Originally Posted by 5mm View Post
???? Transport Canada doesn't set Canadian airlines safety Benchmarks. This is done by each airline themselves. Transport Canada only regulates the bare min safety levels. This is why WS only order 1 additional safety option, where AC took both options. Also, AC is the only North American airline to order 737-max simulators and is currently training their pilots on Boeing software updates. Finally, AC is also the only airline in North America that upgraded their 737-Max cockpits instrument panels, addiing a additional safety level. This was a custom upgrade not offered by Boeing.
These extra's cost AC millions, which WS was not willing to spend. Maybe it is time?
Meanwhile, United Airlines, a much larger airline than Air Canada did not select the indicators or the disagree lights for their 14 MAX planes. The company does not include the features because its pilots use other data to fly the plane. All primary flight information required to safely and efficiently operate the 737 MAX is already included, and with proper flight training, those extra angle of attack features Boeing found to not be a requirement.With the right training, the crews can deal with it. That being said Boeing is now going to offer it to all operators free of charge, therefore Westjet will have it as Boeing was in the wrong with this. https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...28-p518be.html

WestJet has multiple 737 simulators
, as the Max shares fleet commonality, they have programming for the max aircraft. It's a common type rating so a 737 simulator is a 737 simulator. They have a special course called a differences course to learn the differences between each model.
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Last edited by cirrusdragoon; Apr 29, 19 at 3:37 pm
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Old Apr 29, 19, 6:22 pm
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Originally Posted by cirrusdragoon View Post
Meanwhile, United Airlines, a much larger airline than Air Canada did not select the indicators or the disagree lights for their 14 MAX planes. The company does not include the features because its pilots use other data to fly the plane. All primary flight information required to safely and efficiently operate the 737 MAX is already included, and with proper flight training, those extra angle of attack features Boeing found to not be a requirement.With the right training, the crews can deal with it. That being said Boeing is now going to offer it to all operators free of charge, therefore Westjet will have it as Boeing was in the wrong with this. https://www.smh.com.au/business/comp...28-p518be.html

WestJet has multiple 737 simulators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAM-opoJlv8, as the Max shares fleet commonality, they have programming for the max aircraft. It's a common type rating so a 737 simulator is a 737 simulator. They have a special course called a differences course to learn the differences between each model.
WestJet only has 737NG simulators, if I recall. A MAX simulator cannot just be “plugged into” an NG platform. There is no simulator training in a MAX at WestJet, only computer based training (iPad), directly from my pilot neighbour.

Going forward, of course, this may change...Transport Canada will dictate required training.
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Old Apr 29, 19, 7:09 pm
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westjet does not need a 737 max simulator as a 737 max is a common type rating therefore a 737 sim is a 737 sim.

Last edited by cirrusdragoon; May 4, 19 at 8:58 am
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Old Apr 29, 19, 8:57 pm
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Originally Posted by 5mm View Post
???? Transport Canada doesn't set Canadian airlines safety Benchmarks. This is done by each airline themselves. Transport Canada only regulates the bare min safety levels. This is why WS only order 1 additional safety option, where AC took both options. Also, AC is the only North American airline to order 737-max simulators and is currently training their pilots on Boeing software updates. Finally, AC is also the only airline in North America that upgraded their 737-Max cockpits instrument panels, addiing a additional safety level. This was a custom upgrade not offered by Boeing.
These extra's cost AC millions, which WS was not willing to spend. Maybe it is time?
AC is a very unique Max operator in North America. It is the only Max operator that never operated the NG. They are going into this with a management team and pilots that see zero value in commonality between the NG and MAX. That is a very different perspective to have. Most of their pilots are going to be moving between Airbus A220, A320, A330 and the MAX. They are going to be far more open to design elements that may not have existed on the NG. They are also going to have zero desire in reusing NG simulators given they don't own any.

WS is in a very different position.
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Old Apr 29, 19, 9:15 pm
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Originally Posted by 5mm View Post
They should be bringing up their safety standards up to AC level on the Max.
I’m not sure if it’s intentional, but your comments on this seem to be trying to accuse WestJet of skimping on safety, or of them being cheap while AC was somehow wiser or more prudent.

To be perfectly clear, Air Canada neither chose nor bought more “safety” than WestJet did, or United, or countless other airlines.

The fact that AC chose two optional features related to MCAS and AOA - while WestJet chose one - was based on how both airlines wanted to configure their cockpits for their flight crews. Period. None of AC or WS or UA or Southwest or any other airline would have made those decisions based on what level of safety they wanted to attain, or how much they wanted to avoid crashing.

There was (quite rightfully) a base assumption from every single airline that the aircraft would be fully “safe” regardless of the feature set that they chose to buy from Boeing.

Yes, AC bought two optional features related to cockpit systems while WS bought one. That doesn’t in any way mean that AC has better “safety standards” as you imply.


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Old Apr 29, 19, 11:22 pm
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They are not going to take planes out service to upgrade them right now. They need everything flying with the MAX’s out of service.
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Old Apr 30, 19, 8:40 am
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Originally Posted by cirrusdragoon View Post

WestJet has multiple 737 simulators https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAM-opoJlv8, as the Max shares fleet commonality, they have programming for the max aircraft. It's a common type rating so a 737 simulator is a 737 simulator. They have a special course called a differences course to learn the differences between each model.
Yes, I know WS has 737 simulators, but they are not max simulators, therefor do not have the flight characteristic of the Max. It is my understanding talking to a couple of 737 pilots, if simulator training is required byTransport Canada, they will require the training to be on a 737 Max simulator only. This is Boeing is pushing for non simulator training.
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Old Apr 30, 19, 8:58 am
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Originally Posted by FlyerJ View Post


I’m not sure if it’s intentional, but your comments on this seem to be trying to accuse WestJet of skimping on safety, or of them being cheap while AC was somehow wiser or more prudent.
Yes, I'm saying WS skimped on safety. WS only bought 1 of the 2 safety features offered by Boeing, where AC bought both, plus upgraded their cockpits with a additional feature not offered by Boeing before they even entered service.
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Old Apr 30, 19, 10:15 am
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Originally Posted by 5mm View Post
Yes, I'm saying WS skimped on safety. WS only bought 1 of the 2 safety features offered by Boeing, where AC bought both, plus upgraded their cockpits with a additional feature not offered by Boeing before they even entered service.
Perhaps you should re-read my post.

You’re claiming that WestJet (and United, and countess other airlines) intentionally risked the safety of their planes, passengers and crew in order to save a few bucks? That they intentionally and knowingly “skimped” on safety??

No. Each airline purchased the Max with the understanding that the aircraft was 100% safe. That should be a given when buying a Boeing-built, FAA-certified aircraft.

At the time when the planes were purchased, these options were there to customize cockpit features and flight controls, not to make the plane “safer”.

(There are some features - like additional cargo hold fire suppression - that are absolutely only safety options. Neither AC nor WS purchased those.)

It’s only with the luxury of hindsight that you and some in the media can claim that the MCAS/AOA options were “safety features”, as - with hindsight - it could now be argued that the one extra feature purchased by AC might have reduced the risk of an MCAS incident.

But to say that WestJet, United, et al “skimped” on safety is entirely unfair and unwarranted.
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